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Peter

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Reply with quote  #151 
Hmmm, Once again, I feel an unaccustomed twinge of sympathy for Boniface VIII in his dealings with the post-betrayal Celestine V. I would add that while I grew bored with the article author's blatherings halfway through and skimmed the rest, I did take note of the controversy at the end and agree that the disputed word makes no difference anyway, this was definitely intentional mischief-making by the former Pope against the current one.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #152 
Whether it is mischief making will largely depend on one's views on the present Pope. To me it seems Francis, rather, is mischief making. It is hard to know just what he is up to, but he has caused a lot of confusion, giving succour to those who would literally destroy the Roman Church (given they would change doctrines that cannot be changed without bringing down the Church's understanding of the magisterium).

I thought what you refer to as blatherings pretty much capture the heart of the problem. Those around Francis are overzealous to accommodate the Church to the world, even when the world is operating from principles and assumptions in direct conflict with those of the Church as an historical and magisterial institution. With Francis in charge these people seem to be a particular problem.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #153 
Whatever one's views on the present Pope (and mine as you know contrast sharply with just about everyone else's here), Benedict XVI stepped down from the position and should not be attempting to direct the Church in any way. If he wanted to still be doing that, he should never have abdicated. But people like your author should take heart. The Church is far too set in its grim ways to be changed by one pontificate, however radical. Francis will undoubtedly be succeeded when the time comes by a reactionary who will spend his entire reign winding back the clock, to heartfelt applause in some quarters at least.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #154 
Surely the question is whether or not Francis's actions and the goings on in the Church rise to the level of a serious problem. Of course, given his abdication, Benedict should keep quiet in routine circumstances. But if, for example, Francis were propounding Arianism (or perhaps Protestantism would be an even better example, given the drift of those pushing Francis more or less leads that way), then Benedict would be right to weigh in. A gentle rebuke seems okay in the situation.

Leaving aside loaded terms that those with opposing views are hardly going to accept, Francis can't change the core of the doctrines that are the source of conflict. They have been propounded by the tradition of the Church and the infallible statements of previous Popes. It would overturn the whole Catholic understanding of the magisterium to try to change the doctrines.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #155 
From the Code of Canon Law, 1983:

 

Quote:

TITLE I.

THE OBLIGATIONS AND RIGHTS OF ALL THE CHRISTIAN FAITHFUL

Can. 212

§2. The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires.

§3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.

(My emphasis)



Benedict is a member of the Christian Faithful. He has every right, and, indeed, a duty, to act as he has.

 


__________________
'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Peter

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Reply with quote  #156 
Benedict is a pastor of the Church, not a humble member of the laity. He had no right to attack and undermine those now placed above him.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #157 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Benedict is a pastor of the Church, not a humble member of the laity. He had no right to attack and undermine those now placed above him.


You will note that I quoted from Book II: The People of God, Part I, The Christian Faithful, Title I, The Obligations and Rights of All the Christian Faithful, and not from Title II, The Obligations and Rights of the Lay Christian Faithful (my emphasis).

You are quite right that 'Benedict is ... not a humble member of the laity', but he is without a doubt, a member of 'All the Christian Faithful', whose rights are addressed in the Canon I quoted above. The Church is fully aware that the obligations and rights of the various classes in the Church are different, which is why there are these two different Titles followed by Titles dealing with Clerics, Personal Prelatures, and Associations of the Christian Faithful.

__________________
'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Peter

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Reply with quote  #158 
With the weight that attaches to Benedict's words as a Pope, albeit retired, he can never be regarded as a simple member of the Christian faithful (by which I presume is actually meant the Catholic faithful). Apart from anything else, if he wished to speak to Pope Francis he would at all times be able to obtain audience. He has no need to express any concerns he might have publicly, and should not have done so.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #159 
Well, as often, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. You are right that the Canonical term 'Christian Faithful' refers to the Catholic Faithful, but there are no gradations in the rights of all the Catholic Faithful. Benedict is not Pope, he is no longer even a Cardinal. He is simply a Bishop without a See. He does, however, possess a great deal of 'knowledge, competence, and prestige' as the Canon says, which lays upon him an even heavier duty than the average member of the Christian Faithful, and I, for one, am grateful that he recognises that duty.
__________________
'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #160 
Surely the context here is key. Peter is ignoring the confusion Francis is sowing in the Roman Church. Francis has even refused to clarify the dubua of his teachings on marriage, despite them leaving open heretical interpretations. What if Francis began to teach open heresy? rather than just provide grounds for those with such views to cause trouble, as now is the case. It seems over-the-top to say Benedict can't even intervene gently in such a case.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #161 
The problem is that Benedict is not honouring his own abdication. I do not say that no Catholic should question the Pope's decisions and actions, or that no senior figure in the Church should. I would be wasting my breath if I did, the general attitude seems to be that as long as the Pope says what I expect to hear then fine, if he says anything different then he's probably not even a real Pope, and whether he is or not I won't be treating him like one. And plenty of cardinals and other senior clerics have more or less openly expressed their dissatisfaction.

All I say is that the previous Pope, who voluntarily stood aside and allowed a successor to be elected, has a duty to do nothing to undermine the position of that successor, even if he does not feel he can support it. If matters were at crisis and there was no other weighty voice to be raised, then maybe he might have some right and duty to act. But they aren't exactly, and as said there are other weighty voices being heard, in a positively deafening chorus.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #162 
I suppose it depends on how one defines crisis. Things have certainly reached a serious point when a sitting Pope seems unconcerned that his post syndol declaration is ripe for heretical interpretations and is being used in such a way, even seemingly by bishops. Francis is simply ignoring all concern and criticism. He didn't even respond to the dubia of the four cardinals. Francis's behaviour is inexplicable, except perhaps if he is open to allowing divorce and remarriage.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #163 
Divorce and remarriage have been allowed by the Church for decades, even centuries, on one condition. Don't use those words, say annulment and marriage instead.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #164 
Which is, of course, neither here nor there. Whether or not the Roman Church has sometimes allowed the annulment process to be abused, it remains the case that divorce and remarriage are not permitted, and Francis has no power to change that. He has, though, allowed those who support heretical opinions on the issue, room for maneuver. But those people, if they got their way, would threaten the whole edifice of the Roman Church. It is s serious situation.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #165 
The Church's entire position on the matter being transparently hypocritical is neither here nor there? Appearances do count, I suppose, but substance also has something to say. Or ought to, at least.
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