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nocturnalmonarchist

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I am catholic and a monarchist, and a particular fan of Elizabeth II, but so many Catholics, in America anyway, are monarchists but hate the British monarchy. I understand that in the past Catholics were persecuted, but they were even persecuted/disenfranchised in early republican America. Anyone else find this frustrating?
Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #2 
People need to pick their battles.   The forces arrayed against monarchy as an institution are powerful – so if you are of an opinion that monarchy is better than republicanism then you need to defend the monarchy – Protestant or Catholic.  I also care more about the future of our civilization than settling old scores.  I hope the Christian churches can get their act together and actually provide some leadership, instead of being part of the problem.


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"For every monarchy overthrown the sky becomes less brilliant, because it loses a star. A republic is ugliness set free." - Anatole France

Personal Motto: "Deō regī patriaeque fidelis."
Admiral_Horthy

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What is sad is that the Church was a big proponent of monarchy. Then when the Church's support was critical after the war and Italy was voting, they stayed out of the debate. The Savoys not only fell but were banished. The church should have stood by the King.
royalcello

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nocturnalmonarchist
I am catholic and a monarchist, and a particular fan of Elizabeth II, but so many Catholics, in America anyway, are monarchists but hate the British monarchy. I understand that in the past Catholics were persecuted, but they were even persecuted/disenfranchised in early republican America. Anyone else find this frustrating?

 

YES! I have been frustrated with this sort of thing for years. I get so tired of "monarchists" who only support a monarchy if it lives up to their (usually impossible) standards.

DavidV

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Reply with quote  #5 
I think even some traditionalist Catholics, especially on the more radical fringes of the movement I've seen, have no real love for Britain or the monarchy. But at the other extreme you have Catholics in the English-speaking world who also hate Britain and the monarchy but do so for very different, and essentially Leftist, reasons.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #6 
It's actually the 70th anniversary of that dubiously honest Italian referendum today. While I'm sure it would have helped if the Church had openly supported the monarchy, in view of the history between the House of Savoy, Carignano branch anyway, and the Papacy that would perhaps have been too much to expect. What I always find interesting is that the monarchy was strongly supported in the south, which had distinctly had the short end of the stick after unification, and as strongly opposed in the far more prosperous and favoured north.

While I can certainly understand Catholics, especially those of Irish heritage, resenting the centuries of disenfranchisement and disempowerment of their ancestors under British rule, Catholic emancipation actually took place a very long time ago. And when in power Catholics gave Protestants rather more to worry about than restricted civil liberties, public immolation for example. It was a conflict where both sides bore some fault, and was actually resolved in the first half of the 19th century. I don't then see it as justifying even mild dislike of Britain and the British monarchy sixteen years into the 21st, let alone outright hatred.
AaronTraas

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
While I can certainly understand Catholics, especially those of Irish heritage, resenting the centuries of disenfranchisement and disempowerment of their ancestors under British rule, Catholic emancipation actually took place a very long time ago. And when in power Catholics gave Protestants rather more to worry about than restricted civil liberties, public immolation for example. It was a conflict where both sides bore some fault, and was actually resolved in the first half of the 19th century. I don't then see it as justifying even mild dislike of Britain and the British monarchy sixteen years into the 21st, let alone outright hatred.


Americans of Irish heritage, in my observation, hold quite the grudge against the English, and they identify monarchy with the English, and democracy with Ireland and America (who they hold in opposition to the UK because of the revolution). And most American Catholics, particularly outside the Northeast, are of Irish stock, not Italian or German or whatnot. Combine that with the way history is taught in this country, and you've got a population that's predisposed to hate monarchy, as symbolized by Henry VIII and caricatures of Marie Antoinette. 
nocturnalmonarchist

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Reply with quote  #8 
What year was emancipation?
Peter

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Reply with quote  #9 
It was quite a long-drawn-out process, but is generally considered to have commenced with The Catholic Relief Act 1778 and been completed by the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829, with other measures in between. In fact not quite all disabilities had been removed and there was legislation still to come, but nothing really major was left after the 1829 statute passed. The process had been sparked by the Papacy's recognition in 1766 (following the death of the Old Pretender) of Britain and Ireland's actual monarch as being also their lawful sovereign, thus relieving British and Irish Catholics of the theoretical obligation to be rebels.

The 1829 measure was envisaged as passing much sooner then it did; the Union between Britain and Ireland legislated in 1800 was brought about primarily to submerge the soon-to-be Catholic majority of voters in Ireland in the much larger Protestant majority in the larger and more populous island, averting the possibility of an Irish parliament and government hostile to British interests. As things turned out it did not happen quite so soon, mainly due to determined opposition from folk ranging from fervent and principled Protestants to selfish and unprincipled landlords, but did eventually get through, not quite three decades later. Other delaying factors were George III's reluctance to grant assent to final emancipation, he believing that to do so would be a violation of his Coronation Oath, and possibly the minor distraction of the Europe-wide wars raging throughout the first half of the period between Union and emancipation.
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