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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #31 
Actually, I was talking more about the early days of Israel in terms of harware, before the local industrial base was established.  Far as I knew, the only US stuff the Israelis still used were the F-16s.

What about tourists, do tourist visits and tourists dollars, actually help the Israelis, or does most of it end up in the hands of 'others'?


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Reply with quote  #32 

Yeah, tourism is nice.

 

But in the early days of Israel we got our weapons first from the Czechs then from the French. American weapons weren't in use til the 70's.

 

 

BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #33 

By Bad,
I thought Israel had US stuff from '48 onwards. 


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darthkorbus

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahaneloyalist

Baron, thank you, but the best way for you to support Israel, if that is truly what you want, is to get the US to stop giving Israel aid. Nothing has done Israel more harm then the aid she recieves from the US. Tell the US government to stop trying to make peace, stop trying to control internal Israeli policy, give us Pollard. We really want nothing more from our supporters.

 

As for the military hardware the only thing Israel cant create itself(yet) is Jet fuel, and there are others besides the US who would happily sell us jet fuel. We create our own weapons which are far superior to their American equivalent the only reason we even buy American weapons is a clause by which for Israel to accept aid it must all be spent on American companies. That is a major reason for American aid to Israel indirect subsidies of weapons manufacterers.

 

If it was up to me (and of course it isn't) America wouldn't support or aid Israel, period.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahaneloyalist

Of course in Jewish war the we may do whatever is necessary, any other doctrine merely prolonges the fighting and brings pointless suffering into the world.

 

 

How convenient.  With that sort of doctrine, one can justify a multitude of atrocities.  If I am a general of a nation currently in a just war with another, can I order my men to rape the native female population in the hopes it will wear down the enemy's resolve?  Do you see how this could be taken to extremes?

 

I recently read a very interesting letter to the editor in the September issue of New Oxford Review, in which the writer quotes Christopher Dawson in Judgement of Nations in 1942: "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."


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darthkorbus

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Reply with quote  #35 

Quote:
Originally Posted by royalcello

It would have been better to let the two evil dictators, Hitler and Stalin, fight it out.  Stalin was responsible for millions more deaths than Hitler, and the UK/US alliance with him is indefensible.  Basically we allied ourselves with the most evil regime in the world in order to defeat the second most evil regime, and that's neither moral nor logical.  

 

Excellent point.  Shall I hold my breath and wait for this fact to be taught in our public schools? 


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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #36 
If you hold your breath until our government schools tell the truth, you'll turn blue.

The estimates for the number killed in Russia by Stalin range from 4 million to 30 million.  The consensus number seems to be 20 million, which is almost three times higher than Hitler's 7 million.  If evil is directly proportional to the number of one's own civilians killed by a government, Russia was a great deal more evil.  Hitler's determination to wipe out an entire group of people, and his aggressive expansionists policies however, still make him the more evil government leader in my view.




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darthkorbus

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Reply with quote  #37 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
If you hold your breath until our government schools tell the truth, you'll turn blue.

Exactly my point.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonSevers
The estimates for the number killed in Russia by Stalin range from 4 million to 30 million.  The consensus number seems to be 20 million, which is almost three times higher than Hitler's 7 million.  If evil is directly proportional to the number of one's own civilians killed by a government, Russia was a great deal more evil.  Hitler's determination to wipe out an entire group of people, and his aggressive expansionists policies however, still make him the more evil government leader in my view.

 

I remember being in high school (not so long ago) and learning from my German teacher (in an informal discussion--not in a formal class lecture) that Stalin killed an estimated 25 million people, as opposed to Hitler's 10 million total.  I was angry that I had never been taught this fact in my years in school (I believe that I was a senior at the time).  My teacher's response was that Hitler sought to kill the Jewish people (i.e. a separate people) whereas Stalin "just" killed his own people, therefore Hitler's crime was worse than Stalin's and thus Hitler's emphasis over Stalin's in history.  I didn't buy this explanation.  My response was something like "Murder is murder."  Also, Stalin killed many of his own citizens who were Jews, so according to my teacher's explanation, this was an act of killing a separate people, just as Hitler killed many Jewish German citizens.  The only difference is that Hitler sought to kill non-German Jews, whereas Stalin "only" killed Russian Jews.  Any way you look at it, I think this is quibbling over semantics.


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royalcello

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Reply with quote  #38 
Stalin did try to eliminate a whole group of people: Ukranians.  See Terror Famine by Thomas Woods. 

When the facts about Stalin's regime are revealed, the commonly-held belief that Hitler was worse than Stalin can only be sustained if one believes that Jewish lives are somehow more valuable than non-Jewish lives.  And despite my ancestry, I don't go along with that.

darthkorbus

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Reply with quote  #39 

Quote:
Originally Posted by royalcello
Stalin did try to eliminate a whole group of people: Ukranians.  See Terror Famine by Thomas Woods. 

When the facts about Stalin's regime are revealed, the commonly-held belief that Hitler was worse than Stalin can only be sustained if one believes that Jewish lives are somehow more valuable than non-Jewish lives.  And despite my ancestry, I don't go along with that.

Thanks for the Ukrainian fact.

 

As to the value of Jewish lives, you've made an excellent point.  In the current p.c., geo-political world, I believe that it is an unspoken fact that Jewish lives are indeed worth more than the lives of other groups (a fact I firmly disbelieve).


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Rosa

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Reply with quote  #40 

Hey, I've thought of a positive outcome of a possible return to the draft!

 

It could drastically reduce urban crime as the people drafted are usually in the middle/lower class.Alot of these kids I know would gain opprutunities to advance their life than usual.

 

Of course we would have to win the war,but I believe America has an Optimus Prime perspective on this and sooner or later we'll say "They must be stopped no matter what the cost".

 

Maybe the US will be destroyed in the course of destroying the enemy. But at least we'll go down fighting.

 

Either that or we'll turn into an Empire like Rome did.

 


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darthkorbus

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Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosa

Hey, I've thought of a positive outcome of a possible return to the draft!

 

It could drastically reduce urban crime as the people drafted are usually in the middle/lower class.Alot of these kids I know would gain opprutunities to advance their life than usual.

 

Of course we would have to win the war,but I believe America has an Optimus Prime perspective on this and sooner or later we'll say "They must be stopped no matter what the cost".

 

Maybe the US will be destroyed in the course of destroying the enemy. But at least we'll go down fighting.

 

Either that or we'll turn into an Empire like Rome did.

 

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that when this nation utilized the draft, it was based on a lottery style system (i.e. random selection).  One could argue that the upper-middle/upper class draftees had the financial abilities to avoid the draft by going to college whereas the lower-middle/lower class draftees did not, but the system itself was random.  As far as military service--especially in wartime-- improving the lives of those lower-middle/lower class draftees, I especially doubt it.  The reality of war is gruesome, and most people forget just how hard a time our troops have transitioning back to civilian lives after having seen death, destruction, and in many cases having killed people themselves.

 

As far as the Optimus Prime "no matter what" attitude, it might work well for a children's cartoon, but cannot be applied to real life (see my previous post in this thread about the Jewish doctrine of war).


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Rosa

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Reply with quote  #42 
No, put in history you look and find crucial turning points. Sometimes things happen when you have to stop being defensive and take action in order to survive.
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darthkorbus

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Reply with quote  #43 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosa
No, put in history you look and find crucial turning points. Sometimes things happen when you have to stop being defensive and take action in order to survive.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say.  Absolutely, sometimes a nation must "take action in order to survive" as you say, but according to Catholic moral teaching, not all actions in a war (even a war such as WWII, which is historically defined as a war between good and evil) are morally justifiable.  There are many "crucial turning points" in history, but not all of those turning points were moral ones.


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