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darthkorbus

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Reply with quote  #16 

As far as the draft goes, the war is at its most unpopular state ever (the last poll I heard on the news was something like 60% of Americans think that the war was not worth it).  I think that the Bush administration, contrary to its outward appearance, knows that the war is a doomed venture.  I don't know when we will see a troop withdrawal, but at the longest it will happen when a new president is elected (which most likely will be a Democrat, due to the country's anger at Bush and his neo-con friends who instigated this war).


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Reply with quote  #17 

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Jacobin/Zionist revolution 
Conspiracy Theories much? So long as Monarchists make statements like this there is no hope for a serious monarchist movement in the US.

 

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Iraq must be won. 
Supreme Director, until the US is willing to be incredibley cruel they will be unable to win against the Muslims. The only people to succesfully occupy Islamic nations for long periods of time were the Mongols but that is because they were willing to use incredible levels of barbarism against the Muslims when they'd rebel. Unless the US is willing to follow that example victory is impossible.

WhiteCockade

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Reply with quote  #18 

"Conspiracy Theories much?"

 

Let me get this straight it is a “conspiracy theory” to believe that the neocon evangelicals stumping for this war to secure Israel are Zionists, or that Bush has been preaching universal democracy in the wake occupying sovereign nations?

 

Deny the irrefutable much?


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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #19 
I remain opposed to the Draft (If a nation must use force to recruite its own citizens for its defense, it has failed as a nation).

Iraq was a mistake, but knowing ONLY what was known then, it was a reasonable action.  If the Intel relayed to the President and Congress had been accurate, the jsutification for the war would have been simple. 

Having gone in, on bad information, the US and its allies must now find some way out, that doesn't leave a worse mess than when we started.  I pray for the wisdon of our leaders, and for the wisdom of the Iraqi people and their leaders, as this will take a miracle.


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WhiteCockade

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Reply with quote  #20 

Let me point out again the similarity between the Jewish and Islamic concept of a just war which justifies almost everything.   So are you calling for the U.S. to use  "incredible levels of barbarism against the Muslims"?  


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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #21 
No, I'm not (Advocating total war).  Memories of Sherman linger on.

I actually rather proud of the fact that when US soldiers 'screw-up' they face courts-martial over it (It would be nice to see some brass in the dock as well, but at least the actual perps are getting sentenced).


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Let me get this straight it is a “conspiracy theory” to believe that the neocon evangelicals stumping for this war to secure Israel are Zionists, or that Bush has been preaching universal democracy in the wake occupying sovereign nations?

 

Just because someone is not chanting kill the Jews doesnt make them Zionists. The neo-cons you so hate have done more to harm Israel then just about any US government. Every policy they support in regards to Israel would weaken Israel, whether its the Road Map or the cease-fire in Lebanon, the Neo-cons are no friends of Israel.

 

Of course in Jewish war the we may do whatever is necessary, any other doctrine merely prolonges the fighting and brings pointless suffering into the world. One of the very few westerners who understands Islam is the blogger Orangeducks, I think he understands how the West can "win" http://www.geocities.com/yaaqovbenyehudah/yaaqov.jpg

 

As for the US, I do not know if I would say I advocate total war. But I am telling you that if the US is unwilling to be utterly ruthless victory is impossible, any kindness or mercy shall only prolong the fighting and prevent the US from winning.

WhiteCockade

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Reply with quote  #23 

Just because their foolish policies often come back to harm Israel it does not mean they are not Zionists. 


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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #24 
American Foreign Activites almost never actually achieves the Foriegn Policy Goals.

We act with good intentions, and bad thinking most of the time. (Sad but true, at least in my mind)


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WhiteCockade

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Reply with quote  #25 

 

Whose War?

 

 


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Reply with quote  #26 

Israel gained nothing by a war in Iraq, and the US wanted and wants Israel to make more concessions to ur enemies to try to buy the support of the Arab street, and that article was pretty heavily in the "Jews secretly control the world" territory. Though there wasnt anything terribly damming beyond the idea that Democracy is a cure all which the neo-cons do hold of, and which I believe to be extremely misguided.

 

The whole article was really just more proof of exactly why Israel needs to break off her disastorous alliance with the US, and stop accepting American aid. America has done nothing positive for Israel not through aid or diplomatic support. All in all Israel was a lot better off before the US-Israel alliance.

BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #27 
I support the US' continuing efforts to support Israel (Not that we've neccessarily been effective in our efforts).  When the Arabs embargoed the Oil, all of Europe kowtowed to the Muslims, the US alone stood its ground.  The United States provided the military hardware that Israel has used to defend itself.  We may not have been the best of friends to Israel, but at times we have been its only friend.

I'm not a neo-con (I'm anti-interentionists), but I do think that support for Israel, and for the Jewish People is in the best intrest of the United States.  I do not know how to nost effectively render that support, but I do know that neither Israel nor Jews supported by Isreal are tring to blow up buildings in New York City, or Planes over the Atlantic whilst their enemies are.

I also seem to remember a verse or two of Scripture that says 'I will bless those that bless you, and curse those that curse you'.  Now, I'm the first to admint that alot of what the US has done has not really been a blessing for or to the Jews or Israel, but the intent has been to do that.


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royalcello

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers

Iraq was a mistake, but knowing ONLY what was known then, it was a reasonable action.  If the Intel relayed to the President and Congress had been accurate, the jsutification for the war would have been simple. 


As one who opposed the war from the beginning, I disagree.  I have never trusted the U.S. government in matters of war; that is one constant in my evolution from liberal Democrat to paleoconservative monarchist.  Somehow, not only liberals/leftists (who admittedly tend to automatically oppose anything favored by Republicans), but also paleoconservative and paleolibertarian commentators managed to figure out prior to the 2003 invasion that war was not justified and would be disastrous.  I am a charter subscriber to Pat Buchanan's The American Conservative, which was founded in 2002 partly for the express purpose of opposing the proposed war from the Right, and every issue marshalled powerful arguments explaining why pre-emptive war could not be justified, and warning that the consequences of invasion would be dire.  Everything that opponents of the war argued and predicted has turned out to be correct.   Supporters of the war were scammed, and the more Americans who realize this, the better.

Even if Saddam had had WMDs, I don't see how the United States, the only country that has ever actually used nuclear weapons in war, has either the moral or the legal authority to dictate which countries have the right to possess certain kinds of weapons.  As documented exhaustively in Neo-conned and numerous articles, the concept of "pre-emptive war" appears nowhere in Christian just war teaching and cannot be reonciled to it.

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Having gone in, on bad information, the US and its allies must now find some way out, that doesn't leave a worse mess than when we started. 


I think it's too late for that. 
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #29 
Please note that I said 'Reasonable Action' Not 'Just Action' nor 'Correct Action'. 

I was opposed to the war from the start, for the practicle reason that we would have no-one to had the place over to after we 'won'.  I didn't try to determine if it was a just war or not, I just said, "OK, so we go in, bust the Iraqi Army to private, then what?  Who do we give the place back to?  We gave Germany back to the Germans, France back to the French, Japan back to the Japanese, who in Iraq can we give the place to after we've won?  If we can't hand it over and leave right after liberation, we'll be there a long time.  How long did reconstruction last in the south?  You want to stay in Iraq that long?"

I served in Gulf War One, and it was a straight forward deal.  Kick Sadam Out, hand the country back to the Kuwatis and go home.  A war that was 'reasonably just' (we were defending an ally, and strong should protect the weak), and it had a real end/exit stategy.  We did our job, and came home.

This current war, was 'won' very quickly (if you count victory as 1-remove Sadam Insane, and/or 2-Ensure no WMD), but the Americans have no idea on how to win a 'peace'.

Yes, I too fear that we have 'no way out',  but God may be merciful to us yet again, and provide for us, please join me in that prayer.  It will take a miracle, but God has given those in the past.


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Reply with quote  #30 

Baron, thank you, but the best way for you to support Israel, if that is truly what you want, is to get the US to stop giving Israel aid. Nothing has done Israel more harm then the aid she recieves from the US. Tell the US government to stop trying to make peace, stop trying to control internal Israeli policy, give us Pollard. We really want nothing more from our supporters.

 

As for the military hardware the only thing Israel cant create itself(yet) is Jet fuel, and there are others besides the US who would happily sell us jet fuel. We create our own weapons which are far superior to their American equivalent the only reason we even buy American weapons is a clause by which for Israel to accept aid it must all be spent on American companies. That is a major reason for American aid to Israel indirect subsidies of weapons manufacterers.

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