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DC

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Reply with quote  #16 
With Italy Prince Michele of Parma married in 2003 Princess Maria Pia of Savoy, daughter of King Umberto II. Also I will note, I'm not going to particularly argue they should be included in the chart as there are no dubious cases included like Grand Duke Vladimir of Russia's marriage as there are more recent better examples in families. But in the Murat family, former Royal Family of Naples and former sovereign princely family of Pontecorvo, there was an (equal?) marriage in 1934 between Princess Helene of Orleans and a cadet prince of the family, Pierre Murat. Although the Murat's (like the Biron's of Courland, Bagration's of Georgia..) are only Section III of the Gotha like their cousin Princess Marie Bonaparte's branch of the that family, Princess Marie having married (unequal?) Prince Georgios of Greece.
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Peter

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Reply with quote  #17 
I actually knew about that marriage, and really should have thought of it. I would guess that I missed it going through the (very large and complex) family because it was a second marriage and, a bit fed up by then, I noticed the first and clearly unequal marriage and moved on. Anyway, now fixed, and thanks. As a curiosity, that means that both wives of the elder Prince Alexander of Serbia appear, the second under Serbia and the first now under Parma. Neither Genealogics nor Wikipedia has any better date than May 2003 for the marriage, but the Online Gotha has 16/17 May. To get that into Excel it would have to be text not a date and then sorting by date wouldn't work, so I went for the 16th. Genealogics considers that Prince Michel, the brother of Queen Anne of Romania as you know, is the actual father of the two younger children of Prince Alexander, but I wouldn't know about that.

If the marriage of Princess Marie Bonaparte had somehow been more recent than the last equal marriage in either the Greek royal family or the Bonapartes I wouldn't accept it in either case. George I of Greece recognised the marriage as dynastic, which was his prerogative and I'm not arguing about the status of Prince George and Princess Marie's children, but under the rules it didn't qualify as she was from the non-dynastic Lucien Bonaparte branch. It was actually a rather strange marriage as Prince George was a rather strange person, seeming considerably more in love with his uncle Prince Valdemar of Denmark, a passion which was mutual, than with his wife. And Prince Valdemar of course was the maternal grandfather of Prince Michel whom we started with, these things get so intertwined.

I would be willing to accept a Murat as equal, in principle anyway, but I am not going to include them as an Italian sovereign family. I have to have a cut-off somewhere, and have arbitrarily decided that reigning after 1815 and extant in 1914 are the criteria for inclusion, which by some strange coincidence excludes the Murats. And Birons, and even Bagrations. I would unhesitatingly accept the Bagrations as equal, though, the Birons I don't know enough about to say. Anyway, the Parma correction was very much appreciated, and again thanks.

PS A question I have wondered about, and would like your opinion on; would you count a Hohenberg marrying into one of the families (which has happened, for example Archduke Joseph Karl married Princess Margarete of Hohenberg in 1990) as an equal marriage?
DC

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Reply with quote  #18 
I think 1815 is a good cut off point, but we could go to expand the chart with Montenegro for Princess Anastasia's marriage to Grand Duke Nikolai as the most recent and Hereditary Prince Danilo's to Jutta of Mecklenburg-Strelitz as the most recent ruler/head of house example. If we leave the close date as open ended we could include both Albanian dynasty's. Prince Wilhelm's daughter's marriage and the Zogu sister who married the Ottoman prince, but no examples for the rulers/heads of the house as they were either married before the dynasty was founded (like Prince Wilhelm of Wied; bit like Saxony and Alexander Afif marrying the Bavarian princess before he was a "member" of the royal family) or married unequally like Prince Wilhelm's son and all the Zogu's. I don't think any other families could be included, the Obrenovic's did not make any equal marriages.

Like you I would accept the Murat's (Leuchtenberg's were treated as equal by the strict Russian Imperial Family), Bagration's, Biron's as equal. The Hohenberg's I wouldn't accept them as equal, though I believe a Habsburg has married a Galitzine which is the senior surviving branch of the former (centuries ago) ruling dynasty of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, various Princes of Russia also married Galitzine's who really I think could be seen as on par with the Bagrations both former ruling dynasty's reduced to Russian noble status. And one on the subject of Lithuania a family on par with the Hohenberg's, the Urach's, I'm not sure what to think of them due to their brief connection to Lithuania.

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #19 

No argument about including Montenegro, it fits my criteria and I ought to have thought of it myself. I'm just so used to not thinking about Montenegro in these contexts, I suppose. Anyway, the two marriages you mention are now in. The marriage date of Crown Prince Danilo had to be text, as Excel refuses to treat any date before 1900 as a date (I do know why, but I don't suppose anyone else wants to). There are ways of conning it into doing so but they are complex to say the least, and since I am hardly likely to be putting in a marriage earlier than 1899 it doesn't matter.

The Obrenovićs wouldn't have qualified anyway, not extant in 1914. The points you make about Albania are reasonable, but I don't think I will include either dynasty. The Zogus the whole idea of equal marriage doesn't really apply to Islamic monarchies, and the Wieds, well, I did include them in the original charts in this thread but had serious doubts about doing so, and will come down on the other side of the fence this time. I wouldn't imagine that they take their claim at all seriously themselves, and frankly they are more likely to become British sovereigns due to retrospective application of equal primogeniture (the linked post is now very outdated, but of course the genealogy in it is not) than again be Mbrets of Albania. In other words, it wouldn't happen even in the most fantastic of alternate universes.

I'm also not sure what effect the brief and shadowy existence of the 1918 Kingdom of Lithuania would be considered to have on the equal marriage status of the Urachs, but it was too ephemeral to reasonably be included in the charts, which I don't think you were suggesting anyway. The last Gediminid actual sovereign of anywhere was Zygmunt II August, King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania, who died in 1572. The Galitzine male line comes from Narimantas (died in 1348), brother of Zygmunt II’s great-great-grandfather Algirdas. It is all just too remote in my opinion for surviving Gediminid lines to be regarded as other than high nobility, like the various Rurikid houses. The Bagrations were reigning considerably more recently, and of course even have an outside chance of restoration in Georgia. So I don’t think they are quite the same.

My little project is looking more and more like a collaboration, which I am very happy about. It makes a nice change to even be talking to someone else about things like this (sure, I do a lot of talking online here, but I’m usually suspicious that I’m probably just talking to myself). Once again, the help and input are much appreciated. On the Hohenbergs, though it seems rather hard on them I guess you’re right. I was just thinking that the elevation of the Head of House to the status of Highness by the Emperor Karl I might have made a difference, but it probably was intended just as a noble style.

Peter

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Reply with quote  #20 
I have completed repair work on the three Blood Royal threads, much to their advantage I feel as they were all in quite a mess. I thought I would advise this here, the original thread, as while with the others I just made things fit again, restored link underlining and fixed corrupted descendancy links, of which there were many, in this one I did all that but also completely reordered the original part of the thread. Originally this was intro, two sovereigns charts, stats intro, two stats tables, pretenders intro, pretenders chart, overview. I saw that to get the sovereigns charts data to be visible on one screen without scrolling, which while it is not always possible is always my aim, there really needed to be three charts. I could do this if I combined the stats tables into one post, which meant reposting everything up to and including them. I went slightly further and gave the whole thing a more logical order. Now it is intro, three sovereigns charts, pretenders intro, pretenders chart, stats intro, stats tables, overview. The overall result is I think a lot easier to take in as well as more sensibly arranged.
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