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azadi

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Reply with quote  #31 
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Originally Posted by Wessexman
Azadi, but the surname in question is your mother's. Even apart from anything else, it seems a stretch the say you can take your mother's name and inherit the nobility. What if I change my surname to your mother's, do I become a nobleman?

Of course not. A person, who takes the surname of a noble family, from which this person aren't descended, is an impostor. I have used my mother's surname since I was born. Claiming that I'm not a nobleman, because titles of nobility once were inherited according to Salic law in Germany, is wrong, because surnames, which include titles of nobility and nobiliary particles, aren't inherited according to Salic law in Germany today.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #32 
As Peter said, surnames and titles of nobility aren't the same. Your claim seems dubious, to be honest. Your inheritance wouldn't have been of the title or even the status of nobility before 1919. It doesn't make much sense to say because you have a noble surname, inherited from your mother no less, you are noble today. Alas, you are as common as the rest of us. Kurdistan will have to look elsewhere for its Shah.

Edit: It's not a matter of Salic Law. I'm an. I'm an Englishman; I don't naturally think in terms of Salic Law, although I do think in terms of Male-preference primogeniture and of the children taking the father's surname. When you had first said that you were a nobleman, I had assumed you meant at least that your father was the inheritor of a noble title, if not that you were the nearest heir.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #33 
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Originally Posted by Wessexman
As Peter said, surnames and titles of nobility aren't the same. Your claim seems dubious, to be honest. Your inheritance wouldn't have been of the title or even the status of nobility before 1919. It doesn't make much sense to say because you have a noble surname, inherited from your mother no less, you are noble today. Alas, you are as common as the rest of us. Kurdistan will have to look elsewhere for its Shah.

My uncle, who is an agnatic descendant of my noble house, have granted me the right to bear the coat of arms of my noble house. The traditional rules regarding the inheritance of the status of nobility in Germany don't matter today, because they aren't recognized by the Federal Republic of Germany. Titles of nobility can be born of female-line descendants of noble houses in Germany today, because titles of nobility are parts of the surname. 
Sovereignty over Kurdistan belongs to the Kurdish people. Any Kurd can be elected Shah of Kurdistan, if Kurdistan becomes a monarchy, but electing a Kurd, who is descended from an European noble house, Shah of Kurdistan makes more sense than electing a Kurd, who isn't of noble descent, Shah of Kurdistan. 
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #34 
If the traditional rules don't apply, why can't anyone claim to be a nobleman on just, or nearly, as good grounds? You are trying to claim a traditional noble status at the same time as relaxing the tradiitional rules. It isn't clear this can be done consistently.

Why does electing a Kurd who is a descendant of a foreign noble house make more sense?
azadi

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Reply with quote  #35 
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Originally Posted by Wessexman
If the traditional rules don't apply, why can't anyone claim to be a nobleman on just, or nearly, as good grounds? You are trying to claim a traditional noble status at the same time as relaxing the tradiitional rules. It isn't clear this can be done consistently.

Why does electing a Kurd who is a descendant of a foreign noble house make more sense?

The Federal Republic of Germany has abolished the traditional rules, but it still recognizes titles of nobility as parts of the surname. Commoners aren't allowed to usurp a surname, which includes a title of nobility, in Germany.
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Reply with quote  #36 
Do you have proof of both those claims? It seems by the first you might just mean that, unlike Austria, they don't ban such surnames.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #37 
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Originally Posted by Wessexman
Do you have proof of both those claims? It seems by the first you might just mean that, unlike Austria, they don't ban such surnames.

The Federal Republic doesn't recognize titles of nobility as such, but it recognize them as parts of the surname. The Federal Republic of Germany doesn't allow usurpation of surnames.
AaronTraas

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Reply with quote  #38 
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Originally Posted by azadi

The Federal Republic doesn't recognize titles of nobility as such, but it recognize them as parts of the surname. The Federal Republic of Germany doesn't allow usurpation of surnames.


So repeating yourself is proof?
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #39 
Apparently. What Azadi seems to be saying is that in Germany today being noble is a matter of having a noble surname, despite titles being abolished, but only if in some vague way you have rightfully inherited the name, which apparently does include taking your mother's, rather than your father's, surname. All very confusing and suspect.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #40 
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Originally Posted by Wessexman
Apparently. What Azadi seems to be saying is that in Germany today being noble is a matter of having a noble surname, despite titles being abolished, but only if in some vague way you have rightfully inherited the name, which apparently does include taking your mother's, rather than your father's, surname. All very confusing and suspect.

German legislation concerning titles nobility being confusing to foreigners is understandable, because the Federal Republic of Germany recognizes titles of nobility as parts of the surname, despite having abolished the nobility as a social class. A German, whose ancestors weren't entitled to use titles of nobility in 1919, aren't allowed to use a title of nobility as a part of his or her surname, unless he or she is married to a person, who is entitled to use a title of nobility as a part of his or her surname or is adopted by a person, who is entitled to use a title of nobility as a part of his or her surname.
Changing your surname is very difficult in Germany. Unmarried Germans usually have to use either the surname of their father or the surname of their mother. German men have been allowed to take the surname of their wife since 1977. A commoner usurping the surname of a noble family without being related to it is impossible in Germany. 
VivatReginaScottorum

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Reply with quote  #41 
I always thought that using one's mother's surname was a mark of being a bastard, in the literal sense of the word. That's actually the case with my situation. I am fairly certain that the German government permitting the use of noble titles as part of people's surnames is not equivalent to recognising noble status, nor does that mean that noble status in Germany is now regulated by laws on the inheritance of surnames. By custom and the laws of the last German government to formally acknowledge the existence of a noble class, Azadi is no nobleman, and even if he were I don't see how being a member of German nobility would make him better qualified than anyone else to represent the "history and traditions" of Kurdistan.
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Peter

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Reply with quote  #42 
What you say in your first sentence is true, except that it's always been accepted that children of heiresses may take the mother's rather than father's surname (using both is also possible). It's not invariably done, but often has been. It may be done in other circumstances, for example Oliver Cromwell's family name was originally Williams, but the tyrant's great-grandfather was a maternal nephew of Thomas Cromwell, then the most powerful man in the land after the King, and started using his mother's surname as a mark of the affiliation.

This though was in days when the use of surnames was still fairly recent for common people, and there was not the same accumulation of precedent and law that we have today, and really anyone could call themselves whatever they liked and no one would argue. It was not uncommon for people to have not made up their minds and use two different surnames depending, presumably, on mood! I know my own family history back to this period and they were an example.

Everything else in your post I agree with entirely, perfectly put. The person concerned undoubtedly will differ, his privilege. But really he's not going to accept our arguments and we're not going to accept his, time to move on I suggest to him especially.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VivatReginaScottorum
I always thought that using one's mother's surname was a mark of being a bastard, in the literal sense of the word. That's actually the case with my situation. I am fairly certain that the German government permitting the use of noble titles as part of people's surnames is not equivalent to recognising noble status, nor does that mean that noble status in Germany is now regulated by laws on the inheritance of surnames. By custom and the laws of the last German government to formally acknowledge the existence of a noble class, Azadi is no nobleman, and even if he were I don't see how being a member of German nobility would make him better qualified than anyone else to represent the "history and traditions" of Kurdistan.

A German, whose father is a commoner and whose mother is a noblewoman, is actually entitled to use titles of nobility, such as Graf (count) and Freiherr (baron) as a part of his name according to the name laws of the Federal Republic of Germany. Claiming that a person, who is legally entitled to use titles of nobility as part of his legal name, isn't a nobleman, is utterly wrong. You implicitly deny the legitimacy of the Federal Republic of Germany by claiming that I'm not a nobleman, because Imperial Germany used Salic law concerning the inheritance of titles of nobility.
Claiming that I'm not entitled to use the surname of my noble house is utterly wrong, because the Federal Republic of Germany allows me to use the surname of my noble house.
My maternal uncle, who is an agnatic descendant of my noble house, has granted me the right to use the coat of arms of my noble house.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #44 
No one is arguing about whether you have the right to bear your surname, whatever it may be. But you contend that your surname makes you noble. It doesn't, there are quite different criteria for nobility, and even by your own account you don't meet them. No one is arguing about the legitimacy of the Federal Republic of Germany either. Only about the legitimacy of your frankly perverse and entirely wrong-headed interpretation of its laws. But, as I already said, there is no point in discussing this further. We won't sway you and you won't sway us. So let's leave it there.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #45 
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Originally Posted by Peter
No one is arguing about whether you have the right to bear your surname, whatever it may be. But you contend that your surname makes you noble. It doesn't, there are quite different criteria for nobility, and even by your own account you don't meet them. No one is arguing about the legitimacy of the Federal Republic of Germany either. Only about the legitimacy of your frankly perverse and entirely wrong-headed interpretation of its laws. But, as I already said, there is no point in discussing this further. We won't sway you and you won't sway us. So let's leave it there.

You ignore the fact that my maternal uncle, who is an agnatic descendant of my noble house has granted me the right to bear the coat of arms of my noble house.
My interpretation of the laws of the Federal Republic of Germany isn't perverse. The Federal Republic of Germany actually allows a person, whose father is a commoner and whose mother is a noblewoman, to use a title of nobility, such as Graf (count) or Freiherr (baron), as a part of his legal name.
Wessexman falsely claimed that anybody can take the name of my noble house. A German can't use a surname, which isn't used by one of his or her parents or by his or her spouse.
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