Monarchy Forum
Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 2 of 13      Prev   1   2   3   4   5   Next   »
azadi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,474
Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Azadi, your last paragraph doesn't make any sense to me. I can't quite work out what you are even saying, although you seem, again, to be taking a decidedly sceptical tone about monarchy. Why crowning a nobleman would be a lot better than a commoner is hard to see, if monarchy is outdated. It is also interesting how the ethos behind your stance here seems to conflict with your strong dislike for privileges of nobility in Britain.

I'm also not sure what you mean in your first paragraph. You mean that you use your mother's name because it is a noble one? Why does this make you a nobleman? I believe that Germans no more than Brits traditionally hand on surnames from mother to children. I suppose there is no set rules for nobility that cover all societies, but it seems a stretch to me to say the children of the granddaughter of an earl are automatically nobility. At best, we might call them gentry.

Executive monarchies are outdated, but figurehead monarchies aren't outdated. Reza Shah Pahlavi, who was born as a commoner, was an autocrat. Electing a commoner king doesn't make sense, if the king is a figurehead.
Crowning a nobleman doesn't make the nobility a legally privileged social class. Being eligible to be elected king doesn't entail any legal privileges. 
Titles of nobility and nobiliary particles can be inherited through the female line in Germany today, because they are parts of the surname. The husband taking the surname of his wife has been legal in Germany since 1977. I was born in 1993.
Wessexman

Registered:
Posts: 1,851
Reply with quote  #17 
Why doesn't electing a commoner make any less sense than a nobleman? You just assert that.

My point on your inconsistency is that you were resolutely opposed to any legal or social distinctions in favour of nobility, but now you think these are important. You went from a strongly egalitarian ethos to seeing nobility as different in regards to taking the throne.

So you are a nobleman because you took your mother's surname, but wouldn't have been if you had taken your father's? That makes a lot of sense.
azadi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,474
Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Why doesn't electing a commoner make any less sense than a nobleman? You just assert that.

My point on your inconsistency is that you were resolutely opposed to any legal or social distinctions in favour of nobility, but now you think these are important. You went from a strongly egalitarian ethos to seeing nobility as different in regards to taking the throne.

So you are a nobleman because you took your mother's surname, but wouldn't have been if you had taken your father's? That makes a lot of sense.

Choosing a king isn't comparable to choosing members of the parliament. 
I have used my mother's surname since I was born.
Wessexman

Registered:
Posts: 1,851
Reply with quote  #19 
The point is that you went from a strong and general egalitarianism to jettisoning that quickly when it suited.

But that is not the German norm. If you had your father's surname you would not claim to be a nobleman? Your claim to nobility relies on having your mother's name? If someone else took her name, they'd be noble too?
azadi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,474
Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
The point is that you went from a strong and general egalitarianism to jettisoning that quickly when it suited.

But that is not the German norm. If you had your father's surname you would not claim to be a nobleman? Your claim to nobility relies on having your mother's name? If someone else took her name, they'd be noble too?

I don't support strong egalitarianism. I don't want to erase the nobility. I support official recognition of titles of nobility, because the state ought to honour the legacy of the ancient noble houses. Germany and Spain recognizes titles of nobility, while banning legal privileges of nobility.
Crowning a commoner makes no sense in a constitutional monarchy, because the king embodies the history and the traditions of the nation. A king, who is born as a commoner, can't embody the history and the traditions of the nation. The king ought to be a descendant of the ancient royal dynasty. Crowning a nobleman is acceptable in a country, which lacks a native ancient royal dynasty.
My maternal uncle, who is an agnatic descendant of my noble house, has granted me the right to use the coat of arms of my noble house.
Wessexman

Registered:
Posts: 1,851
Reply with quote  #21 
The claim that a commoner can't represent the traditions of the country seems here a bald assertion. A descendant of a former dynasty would be best. Perhaps we might say a nobleman is closer to royalty, although as a strong egalitarian you can't say that. But a nobleman better embodying the traditions of the country seems questionable.
Murtagon

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 214
Reply with quote  #22 
Azadi, considering that you have said more than once that Rebecca Long-Bailey is ugly, then personal looks are important for a governmental candidate. OK, as strange as it may sound, are you attractive enough to catch the eye of your fellow Kurds? 
Wessexman

Registered:
Posts: 1,851
Reply with quote  #23 
Azadi, I find your claim a little more impressive now. That's not because of what your uncle granted you, but the fact your mother's brother, if I read you right, is the agnatic inheritor of your ancestor's position. I had thought your mother might be the descendant of that ancestor's younger son or daughter. Still, I'm not quite sure that you are noble, accepting all this is true. You would be the equivalent of the product of the marriage of an earl's daughter with a commoner. Maybe Peter or someone else here knows more than me, but I am not sure that child is noble, though they might be gentry.
Peter

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 7,516
Reply with quote  #24 
In general in Germany, nobility comes only through the father, and a mother however noble she may be will not confer nobility on her children. The exception would be if the mother is herself a title holder, or if legal arrangements had been made for the title to pass through her. Though not entirely unknown these cases are distinctly rare. Being the sister of a title holder wouldn't cut it so far as the latter's nephews and nieces were concerned. Being his brother would, which is unfair and sexist and so forth but them's the rules.

Gentry are non-nobility who nevertheless enjoy a degree of status and wealth in a particular region. They may well have noble blood, but that is not a requirement, status and wealth going back a few generations at least is what's needed (and some English gentry families are truly ancient, more so than many noble houses). So someone who happens to have a share of noble blood but does not qualify as nobility does not thereby become gentry. They are just someone who happens to have a share of noble blood, which is nice and interesting but confers no status in itself.
azadi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,474
Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
In general in Germany, nobility comes only through the father, and a mother however noble she may be will not confer nobility on her children. The exception would be if the mother is herself a title holder, or if legal arrangements had been made for the title to pass through her. Though not entirely unknown these cases are distinctly rare. Being the sister of a title holder wouldn't cut it so far as the latter's nephews and nieces were concerned. Being his brother would, which is unfair and sexist and so forth but them's the rules.

Gentry are non-nobility who nevertheless enjoy a degree of status and wealth in a particular region. They may well have noble blood, but that is not a requirement, status and wealth going back a few generations at least is what's needed (and some English gentry families are truly ancient, more so than many noble houses). So someone who happens to have a share of noble blood but does not qualify as nobility does not thereby become gentry. They are just someone who happens to have a share of noble blood, which is nice and interesting but confers no status in itself.

Nobility indeed came only through the father in Germany before the abolition of the nobility as a social class in 1919, but the traditional rules aren't recognized by the Federal Republic of Germany. Titles of nobility and nobiliary particles can be inherited through the female line in Germany, because they are parts of the surname. German men have been allowed to take the surname of their wife since 1977. Claiming that I'm not a nobleman is wrong, because I'm bearing the surname and the coat of arms of my noble house.
Peter

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 7,516
Reply with quote  #26 
I struggle to see how a polity that has abolished nobility can then change the rules regarding the inheritance of something which, er, doesn't officially exist any more. They certainly can however change the rules governing inheritance of surnames, which still do. But surnames and nobility are two different things. You might as well say that by changing the rules governing the sale of carrots you have completely altered the situation regarding the sale of apples. In any case, call yourself whatever you want, no one cares so long as you don't go on and on about it all the time. Which is what you have been doing, it is you and no one else that continually brings the subject up.
azadi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,474
Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
I struggle to see how a polity that has abolished nobility can then change the rules regarding the inheritance of something which, er, doesn't officially exist any more. They certainly can however change the rules governing inheritance of surnames, which still do. But surnames and nobility are two different things. You might as well say that by changing the rules governing the sale of carrots you have completely altered the situation regarding the sale of apples. In any case, call yourself whatever you want, no one cares so long as you don't go on and on about it all the time. Which is what you have been doing, it is you and no one else that continually brings the subject up.

The Federal Republic of Germany has abolished the nobility as a social class, but it hasn't abolished titles of nobility and nobiliary particles, unlike Austria. Titles of nobility and nobiliary particles are currently parts of surnames in Germany. 
azadi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,474
Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
The claim that a commoner can't represent the traditions of the country seems here a bald assertion. A descendant of a former dynasty would be best. Perhaps we might say a nobleman is closer to royalty, although as a strong egalitarian you can't say that. But a nobleman better embodying the traditions of the country seems questionable.

I'm not a strong egalitarian. A nobleman is indeed closer to royalty than a commoner. I'm not opposed to official recognition of titles of nobility. Germany and Spain recognize titles of nobility without granting the nobility legal privileges, such as hereditary membership of the parliament.

Peter

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 7,516
Reply with quote  #29 
Germany doesn't recognise titles of nobility. It does however allow titles of nobility to be used as part of a surname. And inheritance of surnames is governed by the rules governing inheritance of surnames. Which are not the same as the rules governing inheritance of titles of nobility. I wouldn't particularly say that noblemen are closer to royalty than commoners. From a royal perspective, there isn't that much difference between a duke and a dustman. They are perhaps likelier to have met the duke, but that's about all it amounts to.
Wessexman

Registered:
Posts: 1,851
Reply with quote  #30 
Azadi, but the surname in question is your mother's. Even apart from anything else, it seems a stretch the say you can take your mother's name and inherit the nobility. What if I change my surname to your mother's, do I become a nobleman?
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.