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Peter

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Reply with quote  #106 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi
An article, which proves that the son of a noblewoman and a commoner using the title of nobility of his mother is legal in Germany:
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/staat-und-recht/gastbeitrag-adelsbezeichnung-weniger-erlauchte-namen-13758538-p2.html

I had to rely on Google Translate, but it seems clear that what the article 'proves' is that it is legal for the child of a noblewoman to use her surname which includes a title of nobility. Which actually no one had been disputing, since it is perfectly true. However, using the surname of your mother (which happens to include a title of nobility) is not at all the same thing as 'using the title of nobility' of your mother. A point which has been made over and over by multiple people already, and the troll is being disingenuous as usual.

I would add that the article expressly says that surnames used in this way are not recognised as being actual titles of nobility. At least Google Translate would have one believe so, though I will be interested to hear Murtagon's view.

azadi

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Reply with quote  #107 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter

I had to rely on Google Translate, but it seems clear that what the article 'proves' is that it is legal for the child of a noblewoman to use her surname which includes a title of nobility. Which actually no one had been disputing, since it is perfectly true. However, using the surname of your mother (which happens to include a title of nobility) is not at all the same thing as 'using the title of nobility' of your mother. A point which has been made over and over by multiple people already, and the troll is being disingenuous as usual.

I would add that the article expressly says that surnames used in this way are not recognised as being actual titles of nobility. At least Google Translate would have one believe so, though I will be interested to hear Murtagon's view.


The Federal Republic of Germany indeed doesn't recognize titles of nobility as such, because the Federal Republic of Germany doesn't recognize the nobility as a social class. I have never claimed otherwise.
You claim that the persons, who are noblemen according to the traditional rules, remain noblemen today, despite the Federal Republic of Germany having abolished the nobility as a social class, while claiming that the persons, who are entitled to use a title of nobility as parts of their names, while not being noblemen according to the traditional rules, aren't noblemen. I don't accept this claim, because cognatic descendants of noble families are no less entitled to use titles of nobility as parts of their names in Germany than agnatic descendants of noble families, while persons, who lack recent noble ancestry, aren't entitled to use titles of nobility as part of their names in Germany.

Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #108 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter

I had to rely on Google Translate, but it seems clear that what the article 'proves' is that it is legal for the child of a noblewoman to use her surname which includes a title of nobility. Which actually no one had been disputing, since it is perfectly true. However, using the surname of your mother (which happens to include a title of nobility) is not at all the same thing as 'using the title of nobility' of your mother. A point which has been made over and over by multiple people already, and the troll is being disingenuous as usual.

I would add that the article expressly says that surnames used in this way are not recognised as being actual titles of nobility. At least Google Translate would have one believe so, though I will be interested to hear Murtagon's view.



And you are perfectly right. I'm left with the impression that some people have a problem with the wives or daughters of noblemen not having exactly the same surname as their fathers or husbands. This reminds me of an anecdote I have heard at work: a German man married a Bulgarian woman and took her surname... so he was now Herr Ivanova. Yeah.

The article does try to hammer it home that you may take your mother's noble name, but it doesn't make you a nobleman (or a noblewoman). Azadi kind of shot himself in the foot here.

There is also the concern of the German noblity that this trend may lead to "brand dilution", because being noble would be worthless, as many Germans would have a noble name.

Azadi had also originally (well, in an edit which got edited away) uploaded this newspaper article from 1989. I suppose it's about the controversial marriage of his own parents. It's very anti-nobility.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #109 
Well Azadi has already admitted he isn't a nobleman, although he also maintains he's a nobleman. Consistency is not his strong point; it's far too common, I suppose.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #110 
We personally consider German titles of nobility to be valid and existent, paying no heed to the decrees of a republican government on the matter. Which doesn't mean that we don't recognise that government as having legitimate authority (some might not but I and I think most others do), just that we choose to disregard it on this particular question. Because we do recognise that government's legitimacy, we accept the legal position that titles can form part of surnames, which can be transmitted in ways the title itself could not.

But our position is that there has not since 1918 been a jurisdiction possessed of the legal mechanisms to alter the rules for succession to titles, therefore the rules prevailing in 1918 are the rules now. Whether a republic that continued to recognise titles could then validly alter the succession to them is a nice point, but one we need not consider since the republic in question did not continue to recognise titles, it abolished them entirely. And changing the legal method of succession to something that legally no longer exists would seem a strange, pointless and generally ludicrous thing to do, for all of which reasons it was not done.

You use convoluted and bizarre twists of logic to justify your claim to a higher social status, an activity as curious for a self-proclaimed staunch egalitarian as your arguments supporting it are. Your hope seems to be that if you repeat these arguments over and over people will give up pointing out the gaping holes in them and instead bow down and accept that you are a lord and they are peasants. Don't hold your breath, asphyxiation is a nasty way to go.

Now here's a suggestion for you, troll. Why don't you give up on 'proving' you are lordly and instead start thinking about ways to act honourably? Personally, I prefer peasants, as you like to describe the unwashed herd (us), who are decent people to nobles who are untruthful, deceitful and dishonest, not to mention so entirely self-absorbed that they make every conversation they barge into all about them. That would be you, apart from the noble bit.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #111 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
We personally consider German titles of nobility to be valid and existent, paying no heed to the decrees of a republican government on the matter. Which doesn't mean that we don't recognise that government as having legitimate authority (some might not but I and I think most others do), just that we choose to disregard it on this particular question. Because we do recognise that government's legitimacy, we accept the legal position that titles can form part of surnames, which can be transmitted in ways the title itself could not.

But our position is that there has not since 1918 been a jurisdiction possessed of the legal mechanisms to alter the rules for succession to titles, therefore the rules prevailing in 1918 are the rules now. Whether a republic that continued to recognise titles could then validly alter the succession to them is a nice point, but one we need not consider since the republic in question did not continue to recognise titles, it abolished them entirely. And changing the legal method of succession to something that legally no longer exists would seem a strange, pointless and generally ludicrous thing to do, for all of which reasons it was not done.

You use convoluted and bizarre twists of logic to justify your claim to a higher social status, an activity as curious for a self-proclaimed staunch egalitarian as your arguments supporting it are. Your hope seems to be that if you repeat these arguments over and over people will give up pointing out the gaping holes in them and instead bow down and accept that you are a lord and they are peasants. Don't hold your breath, asphyxiation is a nasty way to go.

Now here's a suggestion for you, troll. Why don't you give up on 'proving' you are lordly and instead start thinking about ways to act honourably? Personally, I prefer peasants, as you like to describe the unwashed herd (us), who are decent people to nobles who are untruthful, deceitful and dishonest, not to mention so entirely self-absorbed that they make every conversation they barge into all about them. That would be you, apart from the noble bit.

I don't consider German titles of nobility to be valid and existent, except as parts of the name. I'm opposed to the German nobility being restored as a social class.
I support the right of the heads of royal and noble houses to alter the rules of succession, if a jurisdiction, which possesses the legal mechanisms to alter the rules of succession, currently doesn't exist. I support the right of my uncle to grant the right to use the coat of arms of his noble house to the son of his sister, and I support the right of Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia to introduce female succession to the Italian throne.
I have never claimed to be recognized as a nobleman by the Federal Republic of Germany, because the Federal Republic of Germany doesn't recognize anybody as a nobleman. But denying a person, who is entitled to use a title of nobility as a part of his name according to the laws of the Federal Republic of Germany, the right to be considered a nobleman informally is wrong.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #112 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murtagon


And you are perfectly right. I'm left with the impression that some people have a problem with the wives or daughters of noblemen not having exactly the same surname as their fathers or husbands. This reminds me of an anecdote I have heard at work: a German man married a Bulgarian woman and took her surname... so he was now Herr Ivanova. Yeah.

The article does try to hammer it home that you may take your mother's noble name, but it doesn't make you a nobleman (or a noblewoman). Azadi kind of shot himself in the foot here.

There is also the concern of the German noblity that this trend may lead to "brand dilution", because being noble would be worthless, as many Germans would have a noble name.

Azadi had also originally (well, in an edit which got edited away) uploaded this newspaper article from 1989. I suppose it's about the controversial marriage of his own parents. It's very anti-nobility.

This article isn't about the marriage of my parents. My father is a Kurd, and my mother is a Kurd of German descent. My great-grandfather is my most recent ethnic German ancestor. 
Peter

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Reply with quote  #113 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi
But denying a person, who is entitled to use a title of nobility as a part of his name according to the laws of the Federal Republic of Germany, the right to be considered a nobleman informally is wrong.

Sez you, with as usual no explanation of just why it is wrong, just an assertion that it is. If you want your arguments to be considered, first you need to provide arguments. Unsupported assertions are not up to the job.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #114 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi
But denying a person, who is entitled to use a title of nobility as a part of his name according to the laws of the Federal Republic of Germany, the right to be considered a nobleman informally is wrong.

Why? You constantly say things like this, despite nothing you have argued actually being a proper support for it. You yourself admit you aren't a nobleman by traditional standards. You also admit that there are no official contemporary standards, so why on earth would you be considered a nobleman? Your position is absurd, as usual.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #115 
There you are, it's not only great minds that think alike! We posted eleven seconds apart. To avoid misunderstandings, the 'great minds' thing was a dig at me as much as you, I don't think either of us would consider ourselves as in that league.
MatthewJTaylor

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Reply with quote  #116 
Azadi there is nothing wrong with you being proud of your family's noble history but I think its time for you to admit that you are a commoner of noble descent, not a noble in your own right.
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azadi

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Reply with quote  #117 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor
Azadi there is nothing wrong with you being proud of your family's noble history but I think its time for you to admit that you are a commoner of noble descent, not a noble in your own right.

Neither nobles nor commoners exist in Germany today. All Germans are citizens rather than nobles or commoners. German citizens, who are descended from noble families, are allowed to use the trappings of nobility, such as a former title of nobility, but German citizens, who lack recent noble descent, aren't allowed to use the trappings of nobility.
Claiming that I'm a commoner, while a German, who is an agnatic descendant of a noble family, is a nobleman is wrong, because the laws of the Federal Republic of Germany don't distinguish between agnatic and cognatic descendants of noble families. Neither I nor an agnatic descendant of a German noble family are noblemen. We are both German citizens, who are entitled to use the trappings of nobility, unlike a German citizen, who lacks recent noble ancestry.
I'm opposed to the German nobility being restored as a social class, but I'm not opposed to the German monarchy being restored. Norway and Japan have abolished titles of nobility, despite remaining monarchies. 
Peter

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Reply with quote  #118 
Our staunch egalitarian bogus nobleman republican troll's defiance of all reason and logic becomes ever more desperate. Where will this all end? Well it won't, until his long overdue banning.
MatthewJTaylor

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Reply with quote  #119 
German citizens are not nobles
Azadi is a German citizen
Therefore Azadi is not a noble


You are refuting yourself within a single comment now Azadi

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azadi

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Reply with quote  #120 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor
German citizens are not nobles
Azadi is a German citizen
Therefore Azadi is not a noble


You are refuting yourself within a single comment now Azadi

I apologize for having claimed to be recognized as a nobleman by the Federal Republic of Germany, because the Federal Republic of Germany doesn't recognize titles of nobility, except as parts of names.
I claim to be a nobleman, because I won't accept not being considered a nobleman, if agnatic descendants of German noble families are considered noblemen. The name laws of the Federal Republic of Germany don't distinguish between agnatic descendants of noble families and cognatic descendants of noble families. Both agnatic descendants of noble families and cognatic descendants of noble families are entitled to use former titles of nobility as parts of their names in Germany, while persons, who lack recent noble ancestry, aren't allowed to use former titles of nobility as parts of their names in Germany.
I don't consider German titles of nobility to be valid and existent, except as parts of names. I support the abolition of the German nobility as a social class in 1919. 
I admit to being biased against legal privileges of nobility, such as hereditary membership of the British House of Lords, because I'm a cognatic descendant of a German noble family. I'm a staunch opponent of restoring the German nobility as a social class and I'm biased against legal privileges of nobility in foreign countries, such as Britain and Tonga, because I'm a staunch opponent of the German nobility being restored as a social class.
I'm not a republican, despite being opposed to legal privileges of nobility. I'm opposed to having fewer legal rights than an agnatic descendant of a noble family, because I consider myself to be the equal of an agnatic descendant of a noble family, but I'm not opposed to being the subject of a monarch, because I don't consider myself to be the equal of a descendant of an ancient royal dynasty.
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