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Bchan

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
HM King James II abandoned his Crown, and his Country and Fled to France (of all places, France!).  His abdication was duly and properly recognized by Parliament, (in all the Realms then existing under the Crown) the Pope (which negates the appeal to an RC 'counter history'), and the rest of the world (which, makes the claim at least as valid of that of HM William I, from whom the Quen, and the 'non pretending pretender' descend).


I disagree.

However, in keeping with my previous post, I'll refrain from continuing our discussion of the topic in this forum.

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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #32 
All's well.
PM me if you'd like


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NapoleonBonaparte

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Reply with quote  #33 
I am not really loyal to the British Crown but yes I would support the idea of restoring America to the Crown. It's time to show these people what a government is.


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Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
HM King James II abandoned his Crown, and his Country and Fled to France (of all places, France!).


What? What's wrong with France? It's a beautiful country.

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Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #34 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
HM King James II abandoned his Crown, and his Country and Fled to France (of all places, France!).


What? What's wrong with France? It's a beautiful country


Aside from being a beautiful country, it was the natural place for James II to flee as he was after all the grandson of the first Bourbon King of France, it was a Roman Catholic state that continued to recognize him as the lawful sovereign of England, Scotland and Ireland, and he had lived there previously during his first exile when he was Duke of York (during the Crowmellian seizure of power from his father Charles I in London).

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NapoleonBonaparte

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Reply with quote  #35 
Since a lot of French monarchs have been exiled to England, it's nice to change positions once in a while.

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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethiomonarchist

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
HM King James II abandoned his Crown, and his Country and Fled to France (of all places, France!).


What? What's wrong with France? It's a beautiful country


Aside from being a beautiful country, it was the natural place for James II to flee as he was after all the grandson of the first Bourbon King of France, it was a Roman Catholic state that continued to recognize him as the lawful sovereign of England, Scotland and Ireland, and he had lived there previously during his first exile when he was Duke of York (during the Crowmellian seizure of power from his father Charles I in London).

France was the 'natural enemy' of England. 
Seeking help there was stupid, especially when Ireland and Scotland were 'handy' and not yet in arms against him..

HM Charles I, King and Martyr demonstrated what a King facing rebellion does:  He stays and fights and loses if need be.  His coward boy, James, shows what comes of failure to do so.


James II, if he wished to 'rally the people' and 'defend the Kingdom' (and had half a heart), would have fled to Scotland or Ireland, if he fled at all.  He repeated the 'flee to France' stunt when there was still hope for his forced in Ireland as well. 

The English had put down Monmouth's rebellion. 
James II squandered his support, and ran and hid in France.

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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NapoleonBonaparte
Since a lot of French monarchs have been exiled to England, it's nice to change positions once in a while.

No King of the Sceptred Isles was ever exiled to France.
A coward, who had abdicated the crown, hid there once.

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clark

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Reply with quote  #38 
Didn't Charles II go to France when Cromwell had taken over?
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #39 
He was sent to Europe for his own safety while a Prince.

Later edit (sorry that was James II, Charles II fought for his daddy).

He did take a rather long state tour during the interregnum, but that tour included more civilized places than France.  And it came after a retreat from a rather crushing defeat.  It wasn't a pre-emptive flight.

I do not rail against James II, sending James III out of harm's way either.  But to abandon the country as King without out even a fight is a whole other matter.


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Peter

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Reply with quote  #40 
Probably the infant Prince of Wales would have been perfectly safe, and growing up in Britain and raised Protestant he would inevitably have become King, perhaps not in quite the regular order. But one thing I do grant James II and VII; he was sincere about his religion, if not its strictures as regards chastity, and would have thought it better for his son to be brought up Catholic and saved than Protestant and damned, King or no.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #41 
One of my favourite 'counter factual' things would have been for that to happen, with, perhaps, James III doing the 'death bed conversion' or perhaps being a 'closet Roman', everyone could have Been a winner. 

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Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #42 
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I do not rail against James II, sending James III out of harm's way either.  But to abandon the country as King is a whole other matter.


Well I'm far from being a big fan of James II, but he didn't really have much choice did he with most of his nobility and his commons determined to end any possibility of a Catholic succession.  Remember parliament invited William and Mary to come over and do away with the possibility of a Roman Catholic succession becoming entrenched.  James didn't exactly abandon his realm, he thought he would be back to fight another day as his failed attempt in Ireland shows.



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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Peter

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Reply with quote  #43 
Which he also ran away from. He could have stayed and fought to begin with, but his nerve failed and he never put it to the test. He could have refrained from alienating the entire country to begin with, but he was too unwise for that. He was a fool and a coward and cruel with it, not a man fit to be King. By law he was, but he failed badly enough that it was right that he was removed. Of course he was in a difficult position as the Catholic King of a Protestant nation, but he had a chance and had he acted with discretion would never have been deposed, and would have helped his co-religionists much more by just being in place as a Catholic King. Not to mention doing as opposed to abysmally failing in the duty to which he was called, to reign.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #44 
Ethio,
The Scots would have had little love of the English, the Irish even less so.  The 'commons' in Ireland were Romans.  He had places within his own Realms to which he could have gone and planned his return.  He ran way to the arms of a foreign court, without so much as a battle. 

When he did finally give battle, he left again, after a tactical defeat, turning it into a strategic loss. 

Remember also that it wasn't long before his abdication that the Protestant Army had defeated the Protestant claimant to the throne, in defence of their rightful, though Roman King.  James II was a disaster.



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Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
Which he also ran away from. He could have stayed and fought to begin with, but his nerve failed and he never put it to the test. He could have refrained from alienating the entire country to begin with, but he was too unwise for that. He was a fool and a coward and cruel with it, not a man fit to be King. By law he was, but he failed badly enough that it was right that he was removed. Of course he was in a difficult position as the Catholic King of a Protestant nation, but he had a chance and had he acted with discretion would never have been deposed, and would have helped his co-religionists much more by just being in place as a Catholic King. Not to mention doing as opposed to abysmally failing in the duty to which he was called, to reign.


Quote:
Ethio,
The Scots would have had little love of the English, the Irish even less so.  The 'commons' in Ireland were Romans.  He had places within his own Realms to which he could have gone and planned his return.  He ran way to the arms of a foreign court, without so much as a battle. 

When he did finally give battle, he left again, after a tactical defeat, turning it into a strategic loss. 

Remember also that it wasn't long before his abdication that the Protestant Army had defeated the Protestant claimant to the throne, in defence of their rightful, though Roman King.  James II was a disaster.


All very true.  Like I said, I'm no fan.  However the points you've both made underline my point.  James II had virtually no choice but to leave.  "Abandoning" the throne was actually the only thing left to do once it was made abundantly clear that nobody wanted him any more.  His leaving the scene was actually in my opinion the sane thing to do.  Do we fault the Shah of Iran, the King of Greece or the King of Romania as having "abandoned" their thrones?  James II was a poor monarch yes, but leaving was probably his one wise decision. 

Driving the King and Queen out of the country but keeping their baby to be raised Protestant wasn't really an option since the enemies of the King were circulating the tale that the baby wasn't really his anyway... that he was smuggled in to the birthing room etc...



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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
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