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azadi

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Azadi, why do you constantly bring up the same refuted points?

As has been said before, no one - or at least few - here are objecting to the Scots having another referendum on independence. What they are objecting to is it happening within a generation of the last one. This is because that undermines stability of governance in the UK. Tell us, when would be too frequent for you? Would a referenda every year be too often? How about weekly ones? What about every afternoon after tea?

The Scots deserve another referendum on independence, because Britain has left the EU. I wouldn't have supported a new Scottish referendum on independence, if Britain had remained a member state of the EU. 
Peter

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Reply with quote  #17 
So every time a decision is taken by the nation as a whole, Scotland can decide afresh whether it wants to go along, or go its own way? I don't think that's sustainable. In any case the pressure for a new referendum isn't driven by the passions of the Scottish people. It arises from the ambitions of the SNP. And if it matters to you, which you say it does, previous posters have been right. The Scottish monarchy is safe while Scotland remains in the Union, but would be greatly imperilled if Scotland separated.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #18 
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Originally Posted by Peter
So every time a decision is taken by the nation as a whole, Scotland can decide afresh whether it wants to go along, or go its own way? I don't think that's sustainable. In any case the pressure for a new referendum isn't driven by the passions of the Scottish people. It arises from the ambitions of the SNP. And if it matters to you, which you say it does, previous posters have been right. The Scottish monarchy is safe while Scotland remains in the Union, but would be greatly imperilled if Scotland separated.

I don't support Scottish independence. The Scots have never been oppressed by the British government, unlike the Irishmen, and Scotland is culturally far closer to England than to continental Europe. I will endorse voting against Scottish independence, if a new Scottish independence referendum is held. But I support the right of Scotland to secede from the UK, because Scotland is an independent nation, which once was an independent kingdom, and the British government refusing to allow Scotland to secede from the UK is unacceptable to me.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #19 
There's never been a suggestion that if Scotland voted to secede in a legal referendum it would then be prevented from doing so. So I don't understand why you even raise the point.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #20 
We literally went over this previously.

As Peter alludes to, there are always decisions of national importance that being taken, or certainly ones that the separatists will say have been taken, so that's hardly a good reason for another referendum. I hardly undermines the point about too frequent referenda causing instability. I notice you say nothing about how long a wait there should be between referenda, at a minimum.

And that's even neglecting to note that the Brexit vote was not out of the blue. Cameron had promised it prior to the Scottish vote. It hardly makes sense to say that we ignore the fact Scottish voters had every opportunity to take this account in their independence votes and allow to vote again because they later didn't like a national (British-wide) referendum result.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #21 
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Originally Posted by Peter
There's never been a suggestion that if Scotland voted to secede in a legal referendum it would then be prevented from doing so. So I don't understand why you even raise the point.

Boris Johnson refuses to allow the Scottish government to hold a legal independence referendum. The Scottish monarchy is indeed safer, if Scotland remains part of the UK than if Scotland secedes from the UK, but Scotland is more likely to become a republic if it obtains independence through a hostile divorce from England than if Scotland obtains independence through an amicable divorce from England.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #22 
Round and round we go. The Prime Minister should not allow Scotland to hold a legal independence referendum until a reasonable amount of time has passed since the prior one. Which it nowhere near has. The chances of Scotland taking a UDI option hover somewhere between nil and none at all, so that's yet another irrelevant scenario you've dragged in.
MatthewJTaylor

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Reply with quote  #23 
If Scottish succession were achieved by illegal means, there would likely be widespread militia violence and potentially even the involvement of the Brirtish Army, so I'm pretty sure that the nationalist establishment will avoid such a path.
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Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #24 
I do think that, so long as the poll seemed to have a high enough turnout and is run properly, we would have to accept it. I don't think the British government will go down the Spanish route. That really would bolster independence sentiment. At the very least, I think we'd have to hold an official referendum in that case.

Not allowing a new referendum is certainly not risk free. It may allow the SNP to play on the idea that the British government is stifling the self-determination of the Scottish people. On the other hand, most Scots realise that the government isn't really preventing them from ever having another referendum. They will recognise that there's good reasons for not having another so soon. Having a referendum also comes with risks of course. Not to mention that one reason the SNP are pushing so strongly is they fear a decline in support for independence. This could be the case if Brexit causes no serious issues. It may also come because the SNP themselves will almost certainly decline in popularity soon enough, and independence is tied to them. Not only have they been in power a good while anyway, but there are signs they aren't very competent in actually running Scotland. So there are advantages for the government in waiting, even beyond issues of stability.
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #25 
The SNP's problems got worse:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7971903/Scottish-finance-secretary-Derek-Mackay-Minister-texted-16-year-old-boy.html
Peter

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Reply with quote  #26 
I wouldn't make too much of this. The former minister's behaviour while perhaps not illegal was certainly abominable, and he has rightly resigned and his career is over (at least, it'd better be). But this was an individual not institutional failing, different from say Corbyn's anti-Semitism which had permeated and contaminated the entire Labour Party. The SNP does in fact have many institutional failings, not least the poor record in government that Wessexman refers to. Better to concentrate on those in my view.
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #27 
Daniel Greenfield makes some points:
https://www.frontpagemag.com/point/2020/02/snps-leftist-scottish-future-leader-resigns-after-daniel-greenfield/
Peter

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Reply with quote  #28 
Hmm, perhaps I spoke too soon, as there are suggestions of an attempted SNP cover-up. These are perhaps defensible as requiring proper scrutiny of the grounds of the allegation prior to it being published, but more concerning are the implications that this was an established pattern of behaviour by a senior party figure, well-known to its leadership and thus far tolerated by them. Which would be an institutional failing.
bator

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Reply with quote  #29 
anyway congratulations with brexit dear british friends. i am envious of you and want my country to follow you out.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #30 
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Originally Posted by bator
anyway congratulations with brexit dear british friends. i am envious of you and want my country to follow you out.

Why do you want Denmark to leave the EU? Denmark isn't a member state of the Eurozone. I want Germany to leave the Eurozone, while remaining a member state of the EU. I'm opposed to Denmark leaving the EU, because Denmark is part of the German cultural sphere, unlike Norway and Sweden.
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