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jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #106 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
Your 'fantasy' listed someone other than the reigning monarch as King of Spain.  Looked like support for the usurper to me.


Yep!

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #107 
Schneider, in reply #88 you listed Denis I as King of Portugal and the Algarves. I know that you withdrew the name in favour of Dom Duarte, but I am curious as to who this Denis I might be. Also, as Portugal has already had a King Denis (1279-1325), a great and wise monarch and very important in Portugal's early history, why Denis I not II?

On the issue of questioning the right of currently reigning monarchs, see post #4 in Welcome/Rules. It would be up to royalcello to say definitively, but I personally don't think calling it a game is sufficient excuse for naming the Carlist (sort of) claimant as King of Spain. Royalcello has made clear from time to time that while discussion of and even sympathy for historical Jacobitism is fine, advocacy of the Jacobite cause today is not. Presumably the same would apply to Carlism.
Pragmatist

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Reply with quote  #108 
Isn't Juan Carlos an heir to both the main and Carlist lines?

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #109 
By rational understanding, yes. However many Carlists were not prepared to accept that the opposition, as it were, had inherited their crown, and decided that the rightful King of Spain is the person who best embodies traditional and Catholic values. Remaining Carlists can therefore hardly be described as legitimists, as they select their candidate without reference to any Spanish succession law there has ever been. Additionally some claimed, possibly correctly, that the Infante Francisco de Paula, from whom King Juan Carlos I's male line descends, was the son not of Carlos IV but of his chief minister Godoy. However in that case one would expect the Duke of Calabria to be their choice, but the Duke of the time was a near relative and close associate of the actual royal family, so presumably not interested in the position. Carlist holdouts therefore jumped over the entire Bourbon-Sicily line and went for Bourbon-Parma instead. As I say, in no sense is Carlism now a legitimist movement.
Spongie555

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Reply with quote  #110 

I find carlism obsolete now as King Juan Carlos is the rightful King of Spain


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jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #111 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
By rational understanding, yes. However many Carlists were not prepared to accept that the opposition, as it were, had inherited their crown, and decided that the rightful King of Spain is the person who best embodies traditional and Catholic values. Remaining Carlists can therefore hardly be described as legitimists, as they select their candidate without reference to any Spanish succession law there has ever been. Additionally some claimed, possibly correctly, that the Infante Francisco de Paula, from whom King Juan Carlos I's male line descends, was the son not of Carlos IV but of his chief minister Godoy. However in that case one would expect the Duke of Calabria to be their choice, but the Duke of the time was a near relative and close associate of the actual royal family, so presumably not interested in the position. Carlist holdouts therefore jumped over the entire Bourbon-Sicily line and went for Bourbon-Parma instead. As I say, in no sense is Carlism now a legitimist movement.


The Carlist concept of 'double legitimacy', i.e. legitimacy of blood and legitimacy of ideology, leads me to refer to them as the Protestants of monarchism. Who decides who is legitimate by ideology? It is a matter of 'individual interpretation'. And Francisco de Paula was born into a legitimate marriage, IIRC, which makes him the legitimate heir.

My ideology is Carlist (and Jacobite) but I support the Legitimate Sovereigns of Britain and Spain.

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Peter

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Reply with quote  #112 
The Infante Francisco de Paula was the acknowledged son of a married pair, which makes him legitimate. There are good grounds to question whether his actual father was the one that acknowledged him, but that makes no difference to his status in law. There are also good grounds to question whether his own son Francisco de Asis fathered any children at all, including Alfonso XII, but again that makes no difference in law since there was acknowledgement. Or under any interpretation to entitlement, since Alfonso XII was both the undoubted (obviously) and acknowledged, by both parents, legitimate son of the Queen, Isabella II, from whom his right derived. Carlists may have a problem over the paternity and French legitimists might, but Spanish loyalists do not.

The lame excuses of thwarted reactionaries for not accepting a lawful succession according to the very system they had been fighting for are not really to be compared to the Reformation, in my opinion.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #113 
Making the Carlists more like the Sedevacante folks if one wishes to stay with a religious analogy.

They claim more legitimacy than the one who holds the chair, and to have the right to determine who can and can not hold the chair of the very system they claim to support.....



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Schneider

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Reply with quote  #114 
@Peter: HRH The Prince Denis is the D. Duarte´s son, along with HRH THe Prince Alphonse, The Prince of Beira - The first in the line. I only did a mistake. 
@Jovan: About HM John Charles - Keep English clear -, the majority of Carlist accepts him, but doesn´t support. But, the Carlism is DEAD. HRH The Prince Carlos didn´t have a valid marriage - And is communist -, thus the Current King will inherit the claim. 
@Baron: Don´t compare kings to popes. King can be judged, popes not.    

I hope this is my last post here. 
Schneider

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Reply with quote  #115 
@Peter: HRH The Prince Denis is the D. Duarte´s son, along with HRH THe Prince Alphonse, The Prince of Beira - The first in the line. I only did a mistake. 
@Jovan: About HM John Charles - Keep English clear -, the majority of Carlist accepts him, but doesn´t support. But, the Carlism is DEAD. HRH The Prince Carlos didn´t have a valid marriage - And is communist -, thus the Current King will inherit the claim. 
@Baron: Don´t compare kings to popes. King can be judged, popes not.    

I hope this is my last post here. 
Schneider

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Reply with quote  #116 
@Peter: HRH The Prince Denis is the D. Duarte´s son, along with HRH THe Prince Alphonse, The Prince of Beira - The first in the line. I only did a mistake. 
@Jovan: About HM John Charles - Keep English clear -, the majority of Carlist accepts him, but doesn´t support. But, the Carlism is DEAD. HRH The Prince Carlos didn´t have a valid marriage - And is communist -, thus the Current King will inherit the claim. 
@Baron: Don´t compare kings to popes. King can be judged, popes not.    

I hope this is my last post here. 
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #117 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneider
@Peter: HRH The Prince Denis is the D. Duarte´s son, along with HRH THe Prince Alphonse, The Prince of Beira - The first in the line. I only did a mistake. 
@Jovan: About HM John Charles - Keep English clear -, the majority of Carlist accepts him, but doesn´t support. But, the Carlism is DEAD. HRH The Prince Carlos didn´t have a valid marriage - And is communist -, thus the Current King will inherit the claim. 
@Baron: Don´t compare kings to popes. King can be judged, popes not.    

I hope this is my last post here. 

Popes can be and are and will be judged.
Ponder this: Popes aren't automatically sainted. 
There is reason for that. 

Even if one buys into the doctrine of the protection of the servant of the servants of Christ when he speaks authoritatively on faith and morals, the remainder (which are by far the greater) remain well within the realm of review.

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #118 
A Pope has been judged before now. Though the trial came a trifle, er, late. Another Pope judged in more summary fashion was Alexander VI, whose briefly-reigning successor Pius III refused him a requiem mass on the grounds that it is blasphemous to pray for a damned soul.

Prince Carlos's marriage was perfectly valid, though it certainly was not equal and may not have been dynastic; they are three different concepts and only the last is debatable in this case, that is the marriage was not invalid, was unequal and may or may not be considered dynastic. The marriage of Prince Sixtus's father, the titular Xavier I as claimant to Parma (I would not dignify his Spanish 'claim' with a numeral), was likewise valid, likewise unequal and definitively undynastic, as the acting Head of House, the later and again titular Elias I, declared it so. Thirty-four years after the marriage took place it suddenly became dynastic, as Elias's son the titular Robert II reversed his father's decision.

Incidentally I had forgotten that the Carlists jumped over not just all the Spanish lines and the whole House of Bourbon-Sicily but also the two senior Bourbon-Parmas in anointing Xavier, though after the death of Robert II he became the Bourbon-Parma Head of House himself. It would have been a bit sticky had Robert II not relented, as it would have looked bad for Xavier to reverse the decision on his own marriage, but that was not necessary. Thank you for clarifying the Denis question.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #119 
Having had some of Schneider's concerns clarified to me privately, apparently Prince Carlos's marriage was considered invalid because it was civil only. Firstly that is a valid marriage according to the laws of the Netherlands, where it took place, Italy and Spain, and secondly it is not true. There was a long gap between the civil and religious ceremonies because of his father's illness and death, but the latter took place on 20th November last year.

Popes who were judged while alive, dead apparently not counting (Stephen VI, himself put to death by strangulation though I don't know whether he was tried first, evidently did not agree), would include the scandalous Benedict IX, deposed by the Emperor Henry III and subsequently charged with simony and excommunicated. Another was Sylvester III, who, confusingly, reigned at the same time as Benedict IX, yet both are counted as Popes. Well before his deposition by the Emperor, the latter had been driven from Rome by political opponents and replaced by Sylvester. Benedict then gained the upper hand again and Sylvester returned to his bishopric, of which he was later formally deprived and stripped even of his priesthood. He nevertheless continued in office, but judged he had been albeit sentence was not carried out.

If having two Popes is bad, it wasn't bad enough, as actually there were three at the time, all recognised today. The third was Gregory VI. After Benedict IX supplanted Sylvester III who had supplanted him, he decided that he didn't want to be Pope after all and sold the Papacy to this Gregory VI. Benedict, who seemingly added chronic indecision to his other defects of character, soon changed his mind, and of course Sylvester was still claiming. Begged to come south and sort out the mess, the Emperor Henry III deposed Benedict and Sylvester and Gregory was accused of simony in the purchase of the Papal chair, which he freely admitted, and required to abdicate. There you are, three living Popes judged for the price of one.

Incidentally Benedict was still not finished; on the death of Clement II, who had replaced the squabbling Papal triumvirate, he managed to force his way back again. His final reign lasted only seven months before Imperial troops drove him out and Damasus II replaced him. The charges I referred to above were subsequent to this, and are the last thing we know of for sure in this most chequered of Papal careers.
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #120 
I've decided that with the mess that is Europe today, crawling with loathsome republics and mired in economic and cultural malaise, it has been essential to reconvene the Congress of Vienna and redraw the map of the continent, restoring monarchies and redrawing borders.  Here is my proposal.

Europa.JPG 

-The European Union will be devolved into a customs union and an open borders area.  All other elements of central control will be abolished.
-The Kingdom of France and Navare will be restored to the House of Bourbon-Orleans.  King Henri and his heirs will use the arms of France undiferrenced.
-Poland will be awarded to Don Luiz Alfonso de Borbon as heir to Queen Maria Leszczynska on condition he abandon all pretence to the French throne forhimself and his heirs and he adopts the name Bourbon-Leszczynski for his dynasty.  He will use the arms of Bourbon-Anjou impaled on those of Leszczynski.
-The imperial throne of the reconstituted Byzantine Empire will be held by the Royal Family of Greece and the monarch will be titled Byzantine Emperor and King of the Hellenes. 
-The Ottoman Empire under their old dynasty will receive it's portion of Turkey, and in compensation for the loss of it's northern and western territories to Byzantium, it will be awarded Syria and Iraq (not shown on this map) and the title of Caliphate. 
-King Alexander II Karadjordjevic will become King of Serbia
-King Leka II will become King of Albania
-Ireland will be restored to the United Kingdom
-King Simeon will be restored to the Kingdom of Bulgaria within it's new borders
-King Michael will be restored to Romania
-The Kingdom of Ukraine will be granted to the heiress of the Skoropadskyi Hetmans, Queen Alexandra of the Ginder-Skoropadskyi dynasty and her heirs.
-Maria Vladimirovna will be crowned as Empress of all the Russias, and separately as Queen of Estonia, Livonia, Ingria, and Grand Duchess of Finland and Lithuania.
-The German Empire will be restored as a Con-Federation rather than a Federation, and the King of Bavaria will be Emperor of the Germans in place of the King of Prussia.  All German monarchies recognized as soveriegn at the first Congress of Vienna will be restored.
-The Emperor of Austria and King of Hungary, will also be King of Bohemia, Moravia, Silesia, will also be Grand Duke of his ancestral Lorraine.
-Italy will be broken up.  The House of Savoy will retain Savoy, Piedmont, and Sardinia.  The Grand Duchy of Milan will be awarded to the Infanta Elena of Spain and her heirs.  The Hapsburgs will be restored to Tuscany.  Archduke Lorenz of Hapsburg-Este and his wife Princess Astrid of Belgium will be awarded Modena, and Parma will go to it's native line of Bourbons as will the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies.  The Papal States will be revived as will the Serene Republic of Venice.
-Corsica and Elba will be granted to the Bonaparte family with the title of King of Corsica and Elba (not Emperor).
-Norway will be restored to Denmark along with Schleswieg Holstien
-The former royal family of Norway will be granted Greenland and Iceland as their new Kingdom. 
-Sweden will be granted a foothold on the north German coast.
Please click on the image for a closer look at the borders I have drawn up for these states.

All of Europe's problems have been solved.  I thank you in advance for the Nobel Prize for all catagories.


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