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Inquisitor_Galloglasses

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Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 239
Reply with quote  #1 
Link is here

Found this on some Topic on Phatmass. Your thoughts?

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jovan66102

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Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 2,284
Reply with quote  #2 

Sounds like a resonably harmless genealogical organisation pretending to be a chivalric order. It's obviously also a money maker for someone! Did you notice that to join, you must join as a 'life member' for US$550.00?


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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis

God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.!

Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Peter

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Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 5,644
Reply with quote  #3 

Front page seems unusually literate for a crackpot site. The cost of joining rings alarm bells, though. There are or were various crowns known as the Crown of Charlemagne. Only one can reasonably be claimed to have been worn by him, the Iron Crown of Lombardy, and the one depicted on the site is not it. It appears to be the Imperial Crown of the Holy Roman Empire, which is thought to postdate Charlemagne, being Ottonian in its creation. The ambition to "bring into one group... (his) descendants" is an ambition indeed, considering that they number in the tens if not hundreds of millions. On the whole, I think I would keep my $550 to myself.

jovan66102

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Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 2,284
Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter

Front page seems unusually literate for a crackpot site. The cost of joining rings alarm bells, though. There are or were various crowns known as the Crown of Charlemagne. Only one can reasonably be claimed to have been worn by him, the Iron Crown of Lombardy, and the one depicted on the site is not it. It appears to be the Imperial Crown of the Holy Roman Empire, which is thought to postdate Charlemagne, being Ottonian in its creation. The ambition to "bring into one group... (his) descendants" is an ambition indeed, considering that they number in the tens if not hundreds of millions. On the whole, I think I would keep my $550 to myself.


Peter, question? Were either Edward I or Edward III descended from Charlemagne? If they were, wouldn't virtually every Englishman (ourselves included) be descended from him?

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis

God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.!

Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Peter

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Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 5,644
Reply with quote  #5 
Respectively, they were and we would. William I's consort Matilda of Flanders was a descendant of Charlemagne (and of Alfred the Great). Therefore, all English kings subsequent to William I have been descended from both.

Charlemagne -- Louis I the Pious -- Lothair I -- Louis II the Younger -- Ermengard of Italy -- Louis III the Blind -- Charles Constantine of Vienne -- Constance of Viennois -- William I of Provence -- Constance of Arles -- Adela of France -- Matilda of Flanders -- Henry I of England -- the Empress Matilda -- Henry II of England -- John -- Henry III -- Edward I -- Edward II -- Edward III -- lots and lots of people.
clark

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Reply with quote  #6 
I'd say well over most of Europe are descendants of Charles the Great.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #7 
Pretty much. I'd missed out a link in the descent above, William I of Provence, and have added him. I was making sure that the line was accurate by tracing it from the other direction than I'd first used, and apart from filling in the missing William saw that the marriage of his father Boso II of Arles to Constance of Viennois is in one place asserted firmly, in another called speculation. You get this in these early times, even with more prominent lords and even kings.

So I traced another line for Matilda of Flanders from Charlemagne. She had even more besides the possibly dubious one I first traced, which I won't set out but will discuss briefly after that second line:

Charlemagne -- Louis I the Pious -- Gisela m. St Evrard, Duke of Friuli -- Berengar I of Italy -- Gisela of Friuli -- Berengar II of Italy -- Rozala of Italy -- Baldwin IV of Flanders -- Baldwin V of Flanders -- Matilda of Flanders.

A further descent that can be traced through the Flanders line was from an illegitimate son of Pepin I of Italy, also known as Carloman, Charlemagne's second son. And there is a different descent from Aelis, the first wife of Robert I of France, named as of Carolingian blood without details. I have enquired further and she does appear in various genealogies and was clearly a descendant of Charlemagne. Due to the maze-like confusion with which those genealogies are laid out, I am getting a headache from trying to work out exactly how! Anyway, that's four lines, one in a little doubt, and there may be more.

The descent from Pepin I of Italy was also possessed by both the Empress Matilda's second husband Geoffrey of Anjou, the father of Henry II of England, and Eleanor of Aquitaine, Henry's consort. As we go further along Charlemagne's blood becomes so widespread that without tracing it I assume that most if not all future consorts were descendants.

It would be an interesting quiz question; who was the last Queen of England to not be descended from Charlemagne? My guess would be Edith of Scotland, who on marriage to Henry I of England changed her name to Matilda, Edith being considered too English and un-Norman. Henry's second wife Adeliza of Louvain may also be a possibility, but there were no children from her anyway so I haven't really bothered to look.

Isabella of Angoulême, King John's child-bride and the mother of Henry III, might have been thought a candidate but in fact it took me about one minute to find a descent for her. Henry III's wife Eleanor of Provence was a distant relative of Isabella of Angoulême and shared at least that same descent, and probably had many more. Their son Edward I's wife Eleanor of Castile was apart from anything else a descendant of Henry II of England and Eleanor of Aquitaine. After her it becomes ridiculous to even look.

One might give a flicker of thought to Elizabeth Woodville, the Queen of Edward IV, but the flicker is extinguished upon recalling her high-born Continental mother. Who as it happens was a descendant of King John, so would have all his descents from Charlemagne at least. The various English-born Queens of Henry VIII all had English royal descents of varying remoteness.

The last gasp would be the late Queen Mother, but although the fact never seems to be mentioned when her ancestry is discussed the chain of descent to her from Henry VII appears very clear to me. Perhaps Kate Middleton will fill the gap of centuries, but if her engagement to Prince William is announced there will undoubtedly be an exhaustive investigation of her ancestry, which will as undoubtedly unearth a remote royal descent. We shall see, Though being a snob I hope we don't! 
Peter

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Registered: 07/27/08
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Reply with quote  #8 
Inquisitor, I've just noticed that you've afflicted poor Carolus Magnus with a skin disease of dogs. Could you just change the heading for me? Thanks.

In case royalcello is interested, I'll set out the descent of the Queen Mother from Henry VII. I'd be interested if he can see anything wrong with it, as it seems clear to me yet I've never seen it mentioned in any discussion of her late Majesty's ancestry.

Henry VII -- Mary, Queen of France and later Duchess of Suffolk -- Lady Frances Brandon -- Lady Katherine Grey -- Edward Seymour, Viscount Beauchamp -- William Seymour, 2nd Duke of Somerset -- Lady Jane Seymour -- Charles Boyle, 2nd Earl of Burlington and 3rd Earl of Cork -- Richard Boyle, 3rd Earl of Burlington and 4th Earl of Cork -- Lady Charlotte Boyle, 6th Baroness Clifford -- Lady Dorothy Cavendish -- Lord William Cavendish-Bentinck -- Reverend Charles Cavendish-Bentinck -- Cecilia Nina Cavendish-Bentinck -- HM Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother.
LegitimistJacobite

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 218
Reply with quote  #9 

It is interesting that when true chivalric and nobilitary institutions do not exist in a society, as in the US, a need seems to exist to create imitative institutions like this.

Peter

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Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 5,644
Reply with quote  #10 
The breathtaking entry cost makes me suspect that there's more than imitation to it. I note that the poor Emperor is still suffering from his canine skin condition. Perhaps Inquisitor will put him out of his misery one day, or royalcello will.

My unkind remark about the no doubt estimable Kate Middleton above sparked the thought, who is there feasible that I would like Prince William to marry? Dismissing other royalty as a hopeless aspiration, anyone genealogically interesting, which means an aristocrat or someone of aristocratic background. There must be thousands of young women fulfilling this description, and the Prince must meet some now and then.

Not wishing to restrict His Royal Highness's choices too much, I would ideally like a young woman of suitable age, appearance and character to be selected from here. This explains why, but I will too. The only English or British monarch that left descent from whom Prince William is not descended is William IV. There are now hundreds of descendants, and the first link is a comprehensive list of them all, living and dead. Enough options there among the living, surely.

The most genealogically interesting individuals I came across that were unmarried, female and of feasible age were Liza and Isobel Anderson, 16-year-old twins. I did say feasible, not ideal. Their mother is a daughter of the 3rd Viscount Astor, and hers was a daughter of Lady Anne Cavendish, daughter of the 9th Duke of Devonshire, which brings in some very interesting lines. Also very acceptable would be either of the two daughters of the 24th Earl of Erroll, 21 and 20, so nearer in age.

They would be particularly delicious because their grandfather was Sir Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk, referred to in the second link and one of the greatest snobs who ever lived, who would undoubtedly dance a jig in his grave at the news. But anyone listed and otherwise suitable would do, filling in the one missing monarch for the next generation. Oh well, even if Prince William sticks with his Kate perhaps Prince Harry will attend to this genealogical duty.
royalcello

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
I note that the poor Emperor is still suffering from his canine skin condition. Perhaps Inquisitor will put him out of his misery one day, or royalcello will.


OK, fixed.
Peter

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Registered: 07/27/08
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Reply with quote  #12 
While looking into descents from Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden (don't ask), I came across a site which contains a genealogy tracing William I himself from Charlemagne:

#Charlemagne
#Pepin of Italy ne Carloman, 3rd son of Charlemagne by Hildegarde
#Bernard of Italy son of Pepin
#Pepin, Count of Vermandois son of Bernard
#Herbert I, Count of Vermandois son of Pepin
#Herbert II, Count of Vermandois 1st son of Herbert I
#Robert of Vermandois 3rd son of Herbert II
#Adele of Meaux 1st daughter of Robert
#Ermengarde of Anjou, Duchess of Brittany daughter of Adele and Geoffrey I of Anjou
#Judith of Brittany daughter of Ermengarde and Conan I of Rennes
#Robert I, Duke of Normandy son of Judith and Richard II, Duke of Normandy
#William I of England son of Robert

Interesting. I would have thought this descent would be more widely known, it seems straightforward, but I have never before heard that William I as well as his Queen was a descendant. The page also traces the descents of numerous other members or near-members of British royalty from Charlemagne, starting naturally with the Queen, whom in fact it traces via Matilda of Flanders' well-known descent rather than from William I. There are other interesting links at the bottom.
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