KYMonarchist
Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 2,184
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Reply with quote | #121 |
Quote: Originally Posted by jkelleher
Does anyone on these forums seriously believe that the French throne will actually be restored, ever?
Yes, otherwise we'd be republicans like you and Peter apparently are. You have claimed that there will be no French monarchy in the 2090s. Peter is busy claiming there will be no French monarchy in the 2120s. And I believe if the French monarchy will be on the verge of being restored, jkelleher and Peter would probably argue we monarchists should give up and let the republicans win. Because apparently some people just can't honestly find the optimism necessary to restore the world's monarchies, which must be the goal of monarchists everywhere.
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"You bastard, try this melon." -quote from a Hong Kong kung fu movie (ask and I'll try to find the title)
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royalcello
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Registered: 05/24/06
Posts: 4,064
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Reply with quote | #122 |
Pessimism is not the same thing as republicanism. It is very difficult to be optimistic about France, the country that more than any other in Europe prides itself on its republicanism.
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jovan66102
Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 884
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Reply with quote | #123 |
Quote: Originally Posted by KYMonarchist
Yes, otherwise we'd be republicans like you and Peter apparently are.
Shut up, troll!
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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis
God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.!
Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien! |
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Peter
Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2,419
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Reply with quote | #124 |
I look forward to the next time KYM asks me for some genealogy help. I'll tell him the answer now; being a good republican, I know nothing and care less about such things. |
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jovan66102
Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 884
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Reply with quote | #125 |
Quote: Originally Posted by jkelleher
Does anyone on these forums seriously believe that the French throne will actually be restored, ever? --- John K.
Yes, John, I do quite seriously believe it, but I base my belief on Faith. There are many, many approved (by the Catholic Church) prophecies which indicate that it will definitely happen. As to when, I will not venture a guess, but I will continue to pray that it is soon.
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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis
God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.!
Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien! |
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royalcello
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Registered: 05/24/06
Posts: 4,064
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Reply with quote | #126 |
Quote: Originally Posted by jkelleher
The Legitimist case was not simply conjured like a rabbit out of a hat due to the presumed unacceptability of the Orléans line. Many latter-day Legitimists may argue their case in such a manner so that it appears so, but they are in fact doing their case a gross injustice by doing so.
Indeed; an important point. John may be pushing me back towards my former neutrality, much as I like Prince Jean. Legitimists take note: John's sorts of arguments are far more persuasive than impassioned personal attacks on the Orléans family!
I have always said that the only real issue is whether the Utrecht renunciations are valid, not the personal merits of individuals. Philippe "Egalité"'s despicable conduct, on the one hand, and his descendant Jean's admirable conduct, on the other, are ultimately beside the point. I stand by that.
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KYMonarchist
Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 2,184
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Reply with quote | #127 |
Quote: Originally Posted by royalcello
Pessimism is not the same thing as republicanism. It is very difficult to be optimistic about France, the country that more than any other in Europe prides itself on its republicanism.
Pessimism, however, always has the same result wrt restorations. It prevents them. And the latter statement is all the more reason for supporters of the French monarchy to redouble their optimism.
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"You bastard, try this melon." -quote from a Hong Kong kung fu movie (ask and I'll try to find the title)
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royalcello
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Reply with quote | #128 |
There is some truth in that, but I think today your statement is more applicable to places like the Balkans than to France, where all the optimism in the world among royalists might not help.
Don't get me wrong, I still think French royalists should keep at it and respect Prince Jean for promoting the idea of the monarchy, it's worth doing if only to deny the republic unanimity, but I find it hard to logically refute Peter and John. And even Jovan, who unlike them is a devout Catholic, is not making any predictions about when.
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Peter
Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2,419
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Reply with quote | #129 |
Imagine, as I posited once before, that the gallant Duc d'Enghien had escaped being murdered by Napoleon, and Louis Philippe had not escaped being murdered by the revolutionaries. Further posit that the Duc had served the allied cause gallantly, as he had before his murder and might well have further had he lived, found time to have sons, ditto, then on the Restoration established himself as a leading and trusted member of the Court.
Would anyone doubt that following the Duc de Berry's murder he was next heir after the Dauphin, and then when the Duc de Bordeaux was born next after him? Although he was Égalité's nephew through his mother, he was not one of the never-popular Orléans line, and not besmirched by Égalité's crimes. Wouldn't it have made a difference? You know it would. And yet his claim would have had precisely and exactly the same basis as that of the Comte de Paris many years later.
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Peter
Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2,419
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Reply with quote | #130 |
A small further note on alienability; members of the Courtenay family petitioned successive Kings Henri IV, Louis XIII and Louis XIV to be recognised as princes du sang, with all the advantages appertaining thereto. Their petitions were declined, even though no one disputed that they were agnates of the royal line, descended father to son from Louis VI. Why? Remoteness? What would the precedent be for that?
Henri IV was agnatically descended from St Louis IX, only the great-great-grandson of Louis VI, and from no other intervening King (just for fun, from memory, Philippe III, Philippe IV, Louis X, Jean I, Philippe V, Charles IV, Philippe VI, Jean II, Charles V, Charles VI, Charles VII, Louis XI, Charles VIII, Louis XII, François I, Henri II, François II, Charles IX, Henri III -- quite a lot of Kings). So it wouldn't logically have been remoteness. I don't know what the cause actually was, but somehow their claim to even membership in the House of France had been alienated. Although that can't happen.
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Peter
Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2,419
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Reply with quote | #131 |
Returning to KYM's accusation of yesterday (which I was rather amused than irritated by, even though it was poor thanks for all the times I've defended him/answered his queries, and stupid as regards John, who has given so much time and effort to practical support of Nepal's monarchy and has such an encyclopaedic knowledge of all others, obviously not acquired on a know-thy-enemy basis), it wasn't actually an insult.
I don't think it's bad to be a republican. If I lived in the United States I'd be a republican, with and without initial cap (with not so much because I love that party but because I've engaged too often on-line with Democrat supporters, who with rare exceptions have the intellect, judgement and manners of a sneak of weasels in matters political and often matters other). I wouldn't be a republican opponent of monarchy, but then I'm not a monarchist opponent of republics.
I love the institution of monarchy and wish to see it preserved in those countries where it remains established, above all in mine, and restored in those where it was traditional but has been overthrown. I don't dream of say the United States and Switzerland becoming monarchies, republics are their traditional and established form of government and there is nothing wrong with that. And while I certainly have friends, fellow subjects of the Queen, who strongly wish to see the monarchy overthrown and a republic established, I don't dislike or disrespect them. I argue with them. They are at the least well aware of one reasonably intelligent person whose opinions they respect and whose company they enjoy who is a strong and quite knowledgeable supporter of the monarchy, which can't hurt the case for monarchism.
As for being a pessimist, it depends on the case. I try to be optimistic, but as Theodore noted it is hard to be about France. Unless it is King of England or King of Spain, there is no greater and more glorious title in Western European history than King of France. It is painful to think that no man ever will bear it again, that France has so thoroughly turned its back on all its roots, all its history, all that made it France. It looks like it, though, and as if the most that can be done is keep the flickering flame alive, preserve the memory of monarchy and honour each succeeding heir of the House of France for the traditions and great institution they individually embody.
France is not my country, its Kings never were mine. There is no duty laid on me, but nevertheless I will defend the French monarchy in discourse public and private, and have, the most that can reasonably be required of me. Hubert Gaston, who is French and has laboured in a practical way more and longer than any of us for any monarchy, unfortunately received rough handling from legitimists last time he engaged in the argument here. Which I thought sad, as the whole division in French monarchism has been. I think we will all agree on that, even if not its causes and who is/was at fault.
Anyway, pessimism. It can be hard to tell from defeatism, but the difference is that the pessimist has not given up. Optimism shades into Pollyannaism, each extreme has its errors. And even a defeatist can still romantically love the institution he does not believe will endure, or ever return as the case may be. A lifelong science fiction fan, I do not believe we will ever travel to Mars, let alone Alpha Centauri and beyond. I do not believe we will ever contact let alone visit or be visited by other intelligent life, both because I think the light-speed limit inviolable (the reason for my first-cited disbelief) and because I take the view that life in the universe is very rare and intelligent life vanishingly so, effectively we are alone.
Never stopped me loving science fiction. And my doubts about whether French monarchy will ever be restored don't stop me supporting it, and monarchy generally in those countries to which it is proper. I am no republican.
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