jravago
Registered: 10/13/08
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| | 10/23/08 at 03:39 PM | Reply with quote | #16 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by royalcello
Are you referring to their method of crossing themselves, taking or not taking the RC communion, or something else?
It is true that there have not been very many Orthodox/Catholic royal marriages; in fact I cannot think of any examples prior to the 20th century. Generally the Romanov men married Lutheran princesses who converted to Orthodoxy.
Crossing themselves, not taking communion and standing during the consecration versus kneeling. In addition, we had a procession with the Blessed Sacrament and while everyone knelt, they remained standing.
It can be interpreted as unification of two "enemies" or as a scandal....I would hope that it is a sign of ecumenism and the possibility of future unification. I would assume that prior to the marriage, families, priests, bishops were consulted; these are two important families.
Are royals and aristocrats "forced" to marry on the same level?
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royalcello
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| | 10/23/08 at 03:46 PM | Reply with quote | #17 |
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Marriage rules varied from dynasty to dynasty. The British royal family, for example, never had a strict legal requirement that its members marry foreign royalty, though this became a de facto expectation under the Hanoverians. But the Hapsburgs were among the strictest; only members of royal families were considered acceptable marriage partners.
Perhaps ironically, today it is the non-reigning royal families who tend to be stricter about maintaining the old standards. That is why, for example, Prince Georg Friedrich (b. 1976), whose father was the only son of Louis Ferdinand (1907-1994) to make a suitable marriage, is considered the Head of the House of Hohenzollern, rather than his genealogically senior uncle Friedrich Wilhelm (b. 1939), who married a commoner. None of the ten remaining monarchies have such rules anymore, though the current heir to the throne of Liechtenstein voluntarily made a splendidly traditional match with a Bavarian duchess.
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| | 10/23/08 at 03:53 PM | Reply with quote | #18 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by jravago
During the Mass, I noticed that the son, Dimitry followed his father as an Orthodox while Xenia followed her mother. I would think that in the past something like this would not happen because of the rivalry between the two faiths.
Actually, having attended both EC and EO Churches, with lots of intermarriages between the two, that's pretty traditional. The sons usually followed their fathers and the daughters, their mothers. |
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BaronVonServers
Registered: 07/22/06
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| | 10/23/08 at 07:52 PM | Reply with quote | #19 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by royalcello
Yes, Peter Galitzine is a real prince. But "prince" can mean different things. Sometimes it is a royal title, sometimes it is an aristocratic title. Royalty are the families of hereditary rulers of sovereign countries; all other titled families are aristocracy. In Russia "prince" was an aristocratic title; members of the Tsar's family, the equivalent of "princes" in kingdoms like Britain, were titled "Grand Duke" or "Grand Duchess" (though today there are some pedants who insist that this should be translated "Grand Prince/Grand Princess" even though to my knowledge this was never used for the Romanovs in English when Imperial Russia actually existed).
"Archduchess" is a higher rank than [aristocratic] "princess." So Maria Anna is still an archduchess; her maiden rank trumps her married one. I suppose you could say that she "became" a princess, but this would be a meaningless statement; she is still an archduchess, and the traditional way of addressing her would be "Your Imperial Highness." (I'm not positive, but I think her husband would be simply "Your Highness.") Ironically, while Peter and Maria Anna are a traditional match by modern standards, under the monarchy a Hapsburg archduchess would not have been permitted to marry a Galitzine prince, as distinguished as his family is.
The don't 'step down' when they 'marry down'?
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jravago
Registered: 10/13/08
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| | 10/23/08 at 08:05 PM | Reply with quote | #20 |
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I apologize if this has a hint of the View or Oxygen channel, but are marriages seen more of a merger of two "companies" versus love? I wonder how these were married if the Hapsburgs are that strict.
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Peter
Registered: 07/27/08
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| | 10/23/08 at 10:30 PM | Reply with quote | #21 |
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The Habsburgs aren't that strict any more. The heir Archduke Karl married someone of neither royal nor high aristocratic blood, and the marriage was approved by his father. To disagree with royalcello, daughters did now and again marry high aristocracy, even when the Emperor still reigned. For example Archduchess Renata of the Teschen line married a Prince Radziwill in 1909. Prince Galitzine would I think have been approved on the same basis.
To answer the Baron, normally no. Someone marrying beneath them would lose succession rights for their children and, if a man, confer no royal titles on wife or children, but would not lose their personal place in the succession or royal style.
In answer to royalcello again, there were a few 19th century Catholic/Orthodox matches that I can think of. Victor Emmanuel III of Italy married his Montenegrin princess in 1896. Archduke Joseph, Palatine of Hungary, married Grand Duchess Alexandra of Russia, eldest daughter of Emperor Paul I, actually in 1799. Maximilian de Beauharnais, 3rd Duke of Leuchtenberg, in 1839 married Grand Duchess Maria, eldest daughter of Emperor Nicholas I, and was granted the title of Imperial Highness for himself and his children. But it certainly was not a common event.
Picking on poor royalcello once more, an Archduchess would be addressed as Your Imperial and Royal Highness, not just Imperial Highness. Which of course he knew. PS Especially since it's in the thread title! An afterthought that just struck me, there was nearly a very prominent 19th century Catholic/Orthodox marriage. Nicholas II's parents were keen for him to marry Princess Hélène of France, the same who nearly married the Duke of Clarence. The only woman for Nicholas however was Princess Alix of Hesse, and as the world knows they married, after intense and ardent wooing by Nicholas. As for Princess Hélène it was third time lucky, she became Duchess of Aosta.
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royalcello
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| | 10/24/08 at 06:34 AM | Reply with quote | #22 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Peter
The Habsburgs aren't that strict any more. The heir Archduke Karl married someone of neither royal nor high aristocratic blood, and the marriage was approved by his father.
But not all of his uncles, at least some of whom (I forget which ones) refused to attend the wedding.
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Peter
Registered: 07/27/08
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| | 10/24/08 at 08:23 AM | Reply with quote | #23 |
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Good for them, in my snobbish opinion. I myself come from a long of agricultural labourers in Dorset, but that doesn't stop me being a snob when it comes to royal weddings!
The Liechtensteins who you mentioned earlier are an interesting case. They had sovereign status and therefore were considered of equal birth for royal marriage purposes. However, they tended to marry among the Central European aristocracy which, sovereign status aside, they were effectively part of. They were sovereigns of Liechtenstein for generations before any family head tore himself away from Vienna to visit the principality he ruled. Circumstances made Liechtenstein itself more important to them than it had been, so eventually they visited, then took up residence.
Duchess Sophie in Bavaria did indeed make a splendidly traditional match for Hereditary Prince Alois. However, her own mother is a Swedish countess, and her paternal grandmother was a Croatian one. It is only due to modern indulgence that she has her Bavarian royal title.
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KYMonarchist
Registered: 08/06/07
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| | 10/24/08 at 08:08 PM | Reply with quote | #24 |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_H%C3%A9l%C3%A8ne_of_Orl%C3%A9ans
Note that Emperor Aleksandr III of Russia and his wife, the Empress Maria Feodorovna, wanted Nikolai II to marry her to strengthen their new alliance with the French Third Republic, and hoped to make a marriage match with a member of the French Royal Family. And who better than the daughter of Philippe, Dauphin de France (later King Philippe VIII of France)!
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royalcello
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| | 10/24/08 at 08:10 PM | Reply with quote | #25 |
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Ah, but you see, that Tsar Alexander III was just a liberal Freemasonic modernist positivist... 
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TheRoyalist
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| | 10/24/08 at 08:33 PM | Reply with quote | #26 |
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Quote: Ah, but you see, that Tsar Alexander III was just a liberal Freemasonic modernist positivist...
Of course..... 
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KYMonarchist
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| | 10/24/08 at 09:33 PM | Reply with quote | #27 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by royalcelloAh, but you see, that Tsar Alexander III was just a liberal Freemasonic modernist positivist... The fact that someone, somewhere, has probably said this without joking, just proves that Clemenceau was as valid today as he was in the 1870s. Sadly.
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| | 10/24/08 at 09:52 PM | Reply with quote | #28 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by royalcelloAh, but you see, that Tsar Alexander III was just a liberal Freemasonic modernist positivist...
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BaronVonServers
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| | 10/24/08 at 10:06 PM | Reply with quote | #29 |
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Well, no one is Positive about that positivist part... 
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Peter
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| | 10/24/08 at 10:43 PM | Reply with quote | #30 |
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Besides the fact that he had no children anyway, a daughter of Philippe, Dauphin of France, later the titular Philippe VIII, would have been far too young to marry the Tsesarevich. Princess Hélène was Philippe's sister, and the daughter of the titular Philippe VII, de jure King since 1883.
PS Excellent joke by royalcello. Proving that I am in fact a bit dim, I just now got it, on second read.
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