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Theodore's Royalty and Monarchy Site > Forums > Off-topic Serious > Meritocracy bad?
 
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BaronVonServers
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    07/28/08 at 05:41 AMReply with quote#1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas

"The US Military is the closest thing to a meritocracy you're likely to find anywhere."  As good a reason as any to drastically slash the military budget.



Do you really think meritocracy is bad?

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chas
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    07/28/08 at 07:53 AMReply with quote#2

It seems to me we had this discussion once, but yes. Meritocracy is based on IQ, hard work and social climbing. Traditional systems such as monarchy are based on family, rootedness, love of tradition, and following in one's father's footsteps. They are completely at odds.  The latter is based on personal relationships and trust; the former on bureaucracy, testing, and the distrust that comes from rat-race competition. I believe the term was popularized by a certain president of Harvard back in 40s (whose name escapes me at the moment but Conan may have been his surname) who sought to end the dominance at that University of certain old Boston families, and to establish Harvard as an institution with national reach instead of a regional one.  He adored standardized tests such as the SAT.


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    07/28/08 at 09:59 AMReply with quote#3

A very intriguing debate, and I really want to see Baron's response. I had not even heard the term before.

TheRoyalist
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    07/28/08 at 10:57 AMReply with quote#4

Meritocracy is inherently anathema to Monarchy and Aristocracy, that the way it is, and it also being used as a excuse to disable the Hereditary peers of the house of Lords, so yes Meritocracy is bad when it tries to destroy Traditional order

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    07/28/08 at 11:15 AMReply with quote#5

Hmmm, I don't like it in a politically applied state though. But I can see how it could be useful in some other things.

Ethiomonarchist
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    07/28/08 at 11:19 AMReply with quote#6

Although the concept of meritocracy is indeed the very opposite of much of what monarchy and aristocracy stands for, it has often been used by monarchies to their benefit, particularly in the military field. 

Napoleon I created a new "nobility of merit", Louis XIV, Louis XV, and Louis XVI before him relied heavily on what were known as the "nobility of the robes" who were largely royal appointees appointed on thier merits, and Ethiopia's Haile Selassie also prefered to appoint officials based on merit and loyalty to high positions rather than exclusively from the old aristocratic families, and he was not the first Emperor to do so (Tewodros II, Yohannes IV and Menelik II following similar policies).

Meritocracy is not the same as democracy.  Doing away with the hereditary House of Lords in favor of an elected Senate is democracy and not meritocracy.  If it was a meritocracy, then there would be a test, or someone's record of service would be scrutinized for them to be appointed to the senate or  House of Lords.  Elections are just a popularity contest and are not really a measure of merit.

Meritocracy is not always incompatible with monarchy.


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    07/28/08 at 02:38 PMReply with quote#7

The original creations of the peers is Meritocracy in Action.

Meritocracy in the Military is a long established tradition (as Ethio pointed out).

Meritocracy takes into account hard-work, and to an extent 'social climbing' but I've never seen one where IQ counted for anything.  Applied knowledge, education, and studiousness yes, but 'IQ' - no way.

Meritocracy rewards those with merit.  By promotion within the ranks (in days of old the NCO and the Officers were drawn from different strata, but a meritorious NCO could hope to rise to the top of his 'class', and the Officers were promoted based on merit (with the advantages of education, opportunity, and exposure still favouring the more established and higher members of the nobility and gentry).

As a means of promotion within the military, civil service, and for selection of new peers, meritocracy is not only acceptable, it is in actual fact, traditional.

(Think Duke of Marlborough - the grandson of a common lawyer!)


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chas
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    07/28/08 at 02:40 PMReply with quote#8

I think a distinction needs to be made between "meritocracy," stripped of its historical connotations; for instance, as you use the word in your last sentence, and meritocracy in the historical setting of the word.  Merit of course is a wonderful thing, and every successful society will take it into account. In traditional monarchies, e.g., pre-Tudor, very meritorious persons could become noblemen and rise above the station of their fathers. History has many examples of men becoming knighted.  However, as commonly used the word carries an almost unavoidable implication that the traditional selection process, based mostly on family and background, does not promote the most meritorious. Words such as "nepotism" and "inbreeding" gained currency to stigmatize the old ways. I think Jefferson had it about right when he said there was a "natural aristocracy." By this I think he simply meant that the most meritorious would usually come from the most meritorious stock.

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    07/28/08 at 02:42 PMReply with quote#9

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRoyalist
Meritocracy is inherently anathema to Monarchy and Aristocracy, that the way it is, and it also being used as a excuse to disable the Hereditary peers of the house of Lords, so yes Meritocracy is bad when it tries to destroy Traditional order


My Good Man,
The Original Peers gain their titles through merit - the descendants retain them through legacy - the two work best in conjunction.

As the peerages die-out, replacements, men of merit, should properly be appointed.

I no case that I have been exposed to, has actual meritocracy been in anyway counter to the Monarchy - it those who claim merit, nto those who posses it, that threaten the Crown - the 'educated elitists' are a danger, those whose merits gain them peerages, promotion within the military, and the like are not. 

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BaronVonServers
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    07/28/08 at 02:48 PMReply with quote#10

Quote:
Originally Posted by chas

I think a distinction needs to be made between "meritocracy," stripped of its historical connotations; for instance, as you use the word in your last sentence, and meritocracy in the historical setting of the word.  Merit of course is a wonderful thing, and every successful society will take it into account. In traditional monarchies, e.g., pre-Tudor, very meritorious persons could become noblemen and rise above the station of their fathers. History has many examples of men becoming knighted.  However, as commonly used the word carries an almost unavoidable implication that the traditional selection process, based mostly on family and background, does not promote the most meritorious. Words such as "nepotism" and "inbreeding" gained currency to stigmatize the old ways. I think Jefferson had it about right when he said there was a "natural aristocracy." By this I think he simply meant that the most meritorious would usually come from the most meritorious stock.



We are in then, I think, in agreement.

I today's world (or at least the world of about 20 years since), the US Military is one of the few places where Merit (and not political correctness and brown-nosing) gain one promotions.

Among the officers, attending the academy is almost mandatory (though not quite - extremely noteworthy service may earn one the 'star' even without the academy ring - for general's rank - and the academy is mostly for those of 'family' - but there is provision made for those whose fathers 'earned' them a spot (via the Medal of Honour, or other high honours), as well as for a very few who demonstrate exceptional qualities in themselves alone.

Among the enlisted, 'family' matters considerably less (but then has it not ever been so among the yeomen?).


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chas
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    07/28/08 at 09:29 PMReply with quote#11

Baron, As you explain it here in the case of the military, perhaps we would agree, if your description is accurate.  However, I would never make a statement such as "Meritocracy is traditional," knowing how the term is used. Meritocracy, as usually used, is to me as Royalist says anathema. Its underlying assumption is that family background means nothing. It is absolutely pervasive in this country. We think that anybody who goes to college might write the great American novel, just as the son of a butcher became Shakespeare. We test kids beginning in kindergarten thanks to Bush's No Child Left Behind, and woe to any school district that does not produce successful test scores. It's as if we have an obsession with finding the Shakespeare or Einstein supposedly latent in every backwater community.  Pro-life propaganda states that we may have aborted such geniuses, disregarding the fact that if the parents were willing to kill the child, they probably would not have given it much of an education had they been forced to raise it. And with all the energy expended looking in the wrong places we ignore the most obvious places where merit is to be found.  And hard work is not part of the traditional ethic; leisure is.

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    08/02/08 at 12:13 AMReply with quote#12

Meritocracy doesn't assume 'family means nothing' - it is just that it is a predictor, not an absolute....

Egalitarianism is what you're whining about, not Meritocracy.  The one says we're all of the same, the other says that cream rises to the top.....

On the 'pro-life' part, Just because I reject murder by mother, doesn't mean I reject adoption of fostering...

On 'hard work' I seem to recall a certain wise King advising the sluggard to go to the ant for wisdom....



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chas
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    08/02/08 at 03:23 PMReply with quote#13

Let's look at actual history then. We had the GI Bill, perhaps the ultimate meritocratic piece of legislation ever. Did family background mean anything in whether one qualified for the GI Bill? Absolutely not. All of a sudden millions of unwashed soldiers invaded our universities.  Look at pictures of even state universities prior to WWII.  They are pictures of order and gentility. My father attended the University of Nebraska just before the war. There is no comparison to what it is today. The newcomers may have an adequate IQ, but they have no manners. Meritocracy has destroyed higher education.

"The difference between education today... and what it was before... is to be measured in light years.  The future novelist Willa Cather's studies at the University of Nebraska in 1891 included three years of Greek, two years of Latin, Anglo-Saxon, Shakespeare and the Elizabethans, Robert Browning and the nineteenth century authors, French literary classics, one year of German, history, philosophy, rhetoric, journalism, chemistry, and mathematics."--Robert Bork in Slouching Towards Gomorrah.
KYMonarchist
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    08/02/08 at 03:41 PMReply with quote#14

Meritocracy is the only acceptable way to run a society. Otherwise a society falls apart under massive corruption and incompetence. 'Nuff said.


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    08/02/08 at 07:52 PMReply with quote#15

Quote:
Originally Posted by chas
Let's look at actual history then. We had the GI Bill, perhaps the ultimate meritocratic piece of legislation ever. Did family background mean anything in whether one qualified for the GI Bill? Absolutely not. All of a sudden millions of unwashed soldiers invaded our universities.  Look at pictures of even state universities prior to WWII.  They are pictures of order and gentility. My father attended the University of Nebraska just before the war. There is no comparison to what it is today.

The GI Bill folks weren't the down fall of the Universities though - it was the 'egalitarian invasion' of the 60s, not the 'earned it by service' 'invasion' of the late 40s....

Look at the history - the decline in academic standards wasn't brought on by the veterans - it was brought on by their descendants - thinking perhaps that since dad had gown to school, they had a 'familial right' to also attend...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chas

The newcomers may have an adequate IQ, but they have no manners. Meritocracy has destroyed higher education.

No Chas, it wasn't the GI bill men that did that.
It was the 'government education is my right by birth' children of the 60s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chas


"The difference between education today... and what it was before... is to be measured in light years.  The future novelist Willa Cather's studies at the University of Nebraska in 1891 included three years of Greek, two years of Latin, Anglo-Saxon, Shakespeare and the Elizabethans, Robert Browning and the nineteenth century authors, French literary classics, one year of German, history, philosophy, rhetoric, journalism, chemistry, and mathematics."--Robert Bork in Slouching Towards Gomorrah.

You're rather handily glossing over 100 years worth of decay and placing the blame on the meritorious veterans, instead of where it belongs - their brats.

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