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Reply with quote  #1 

Who here knows about the descendants of the native Irish kings that ruled in Ulster,Connaught,Munster,Leinster,& Meath?

 

Aidan.

kingstowngalway

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 40
Reply with quote  #2 

Dear Aidan,

That would be me. I have started a few threads on that in the past but I haven't gotten many responses. I can recommend a few books to you if you like. kingstowngalway.


__________________
"I dare to put my trust in God's mercy. I have not fought for human glory. I have not succeeded in restoring the altars and the throne, but I have at least defended them. I have served my God, my King, and my country. I have known how to pardon."
--Last words of Major Artus, Marquis de Bonchamps, General of the Catholic and Royal army during the French "Devolution."
BlueEmperor

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Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 102
Reply with quote  #3 

Well I can name you at least one descendant of the ancient High Kings of Ireland. Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II!

 

Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth the late Queen Mother (the last Queen of Ireland) brought the blood of the Dal Cais and Eoganacht dynasties of Munster and that of the Ui Neill high kings into the Royal Family. Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is a direct descendant of King Brian Boru, Nial of the Nine Hostages and the Iron Age sacral kings of Tara. 

 

B.E.


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"The best reason why Monarchy is a strong government is, that it is an intelligible government. The mass of mankind understand it, and they hardly anywhere in the world understand any other." ~ Walter Bagehot
kingstowngalway

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 40
Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueEmperor

Well I can name you at least one descendant of the ancient High Kings of Ireland. Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II!

 

Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth the late Queen Mother (the last Queen of Ireland) brought the blood of the Dal Cais and Eoganacht dynasties of Munster and that of the Ui Neill high kings into the Royal Family. Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is a direct descendant of King Brian Boru, Nial of the Nine Hostages and the Iron Age sacral kings of Tara. 

 

B.E.

Queen Elizabeth is related to them through female descent, which was never considered valid under Gaelic Law. kingstowngalway


__________________
"I dare to put my trust in God's mercy. I have not fought for human glory. I have not succeeded in restoring the altars and the throne, but I have at least defended them. I have served my God, my King, and my country. I have known how to pardon."
--Last words of Major Artus, Marquis de Bonchamps, General of the Catholic and Royal army during the French "Devolution."
Hovite

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Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 66
Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royalist0007

Who here knows about the descendants of the native Irish kings that ruled in Ulster,Connaught,Munster,Leinster,& Meath?

 

Aidan.



The word "king" in the Irish sense was used for several different ranks. At the top was the High King of Ireland. Below him were the four or five provincial kings (Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Connaught). And below them were hundreds of petty kings. All but one of the High Kings came from the O'Neill family. The head of that family is Don Carlos O'Neill, 12th Marquis de la Granja, 5th Marquis de la Norte, Conde de la Benagiar.

http://www.onealwebsite.com/oneall/oneill.htm

After Ireland was granted to Henry II by Pope Hadrian IV, the English kings used the title Lord of Ireland, but that was changed to King of Ireland by Henry VIII. Most of the provincial kings surrendered their lands and titles and had them granted back to them as feudal earldoms. During the reign of Elizabeth I, two earls revolted, but were defeated and fled abroad. The Flight of the Earls is regarded as a defining moment in Irish history:

http://www.irelandseye.com/aarticles/history/events/dates/earls.shtm

Irish kingship was confined to the male line descendants of the founder of the kingdom, but within that family the kingship was elective. Primogeniture did not apply. A king might be succeeded by his brother, nephew, uncle, or distant cousin. As there have been no elections for several centuries, it is as impossible to identify a rightful king of an Irish province as it would be to identify a rightful Doge of Venice. Likewise, the sons of an Irish king had no special rights or titles, anymore than the sons of an elected president have.

The best website to visit is: http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/

The best book on this subject is “Irish Kings and High Kings” by Francis John Byrne (1973); on page 38 there is this quote:

“It is a custome amongst all the Irish, that presently after the death of any of their chiefe Lords or Captaines, they doe presently assemble themselves to a place generally appointed and knowne unto them to choose another in his steed, where they doe nominate and elect for the most part, not the eldest sonne, nor any of the children of the lord deceased, but the next to him in blood, that is the eldest and worthiest, as commonly the next brother unto him if he have any, or the next cousin, or so forth, as any is elder in that kindred or sept, and then next to him doe they choose the next in blood to be Tanist, who shall next succeed him to the said Captainry, if he live thereunto.”

kingstowngalway

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 40
Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingstowngalway
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royalist0007

Who here knows about the descendants of the native Irish kings that ruled in Ulster,Connaught,Munster,Leinster,& Meath?

 

Aidan.



The word "king" in the Irish sense was used for several different ranks. At the top was the High King of Ireland. Below him were the four or five provincial kings (Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Connaught). And below them were hundreds of petty kings. All but one of the High Kings came from the O'Neill family. The head of that family is Don Carlos O'Neill, 12th Marquis de la Granja, 5th Marquis de la Norte, Conde de la Benagiar.

http://www.onealwebsite.com/oneall/oneill.htm

After Ireland was granted to Henry II by Pope Hadrian IV, the English kings used the title Lord of Ireland, but that was changed to King of Ireland by Henry VIII. Most of the provincial kings surrendered their lands and titles and had them granted back to them as feudal earldoms.

 

During the reign of Elizabeth I, two earls revolted, but were defeated and fled abroad. The Flight of the Earls is regarded as a defining moment in Irish history:

http://www.irelandseye.com/aarticles/history/events/dates/earls.shtm

Irish kingship was confined to the male line descendants of the founder of the kingdom, but within that family the kingship was elective. Primogeniture did not apply. A king might be succeeded by his brother, nephew, uncle, or distant cousin. As there have been no elections for several centuries, it is as impossible to identify a rightful king of an Irish province as it would be to identify a rightful Doge of Venice. Likewise, the sons of an Irish king had no special rights or titles, anymore than the sons of an elected president have.

 


The best website to visit is: http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/

The best book on this subject is “Irish Kings and High Kings” by Francis John Byrne (1973); on page 38 there is this quote:

“It is a custome amongst all the Irish, that presently after the death of any of their chiefe Lords or Captaines, they doe presently assemble themselves to a place generally appointed and knowne unto them to choose another in his steed, where they doe nominate and elect for the most part, not the eldest sonne, nor any of the children of the lord deceased, but the next to him in blood, that is the eldest and worthiest, as commonly the next brother unto him if he have any, or the next cousin, or so forth, as any is elder in that kindred or sept, and then next to him doe they choose the next in blood to be Tanist, who shall next succeed him to the said Captainry, if he live thereunto.”

 

Actually, the idea of "surrender and regrant" as used by the English colonial authorities to try and break the Gaelic order, was something which the Irish Kings did not have the authority to do. Often when a Gaelic King would try to adopt primogeniture and an English title of Earl, he could expect to overthrown and replaced by one of his male relatives. As a result, many of Ireland's traditional monarchs would call themselves "Earl" while visiting Dublin and would go by their ancestral title among their relatives, clansmen, and vassals.

 

Peter Beresford Ellis, in his book "Erin's Blood Royal," states that the "Revolting" "Earls" which you speak of were more accurately titled "The O'Neill Mor, PRince of Tyrone" and "THe O'Donnell, PRince of Tyrconnell." THe "revolt" which they waged against the England of Queen Elizabeth I is more accurately refered to as a full scale European war. The O'NEill Mor was repeatedly accused by his enemies of planning to crown himself King of Ireland, which, as the senior O'Neill, he was clearly entitled to. However, this was not his intention. Letters survive which he had written to his ally and main arms supplier, King Phillip II of Spain in which he asked that Don Juan of Austria, the victor of Lepanto, be sent to reign as King of Ireland. To myself, as an Irish-American Catholic, this remains one of history's most heart breaking might have beens.

 

You are correct in some regards. The laws of Royal succession under Brehon Law are described for the most part as they were. However, Irish Princes of the Blood DID have certain priviledges that commoners did not enjoy. For example, in games of hurling, King's Sons were permitted to have their clubs bound with bronze bands, commoners were only allowed to have copper bands on theirs. Royals and Commoners did enjoy bonds of fosterage and did play games of hurling together. 


 

AS for the practice of attempting to restore Ireland's ancient titles, the Irish government, until recently, would grant "courtesy recognition" through the Geneological Office. The practice would be to trace the most senior claimant who could prove descent from the last known "Chief of the Name." There is a "Standing Council of Irish Chiefs" which is currently chaired by "The O'Brien, Prince of Thomond." HRH The O'Brien is descended from a family of Gaelic monarchs who preserved some of their ancestral power by transforming themselves into English speaking Protestants. Most of the others fled to France, Spain, Portugal, and Austria.

kingstowngalway  


__________________
"I dare to put my trust in God's mercy. I have not fought for human glory. I have not succeeded in restoring the altars and the throne, but I have at least defended them. I have served my God, my King, and my country. I have known how to pardon."
--Last words of Major Artus, Marquis de Bonchamps, General of the Catholic and Royal army during the French "Devolution."


Reply with quote  #7 
I'm an O'Reilly as my avater is our family crest. My ancestors ruled mainly out of modern Cavan and had a good-sized country by the time the English came nocking. Eastern Breifne they called it. Wikipedia works wonders...
kingstowngalway

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 40
Reply with quote  #8 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blayne
I'm an O'Reilly as my avater is our family crest. My ancestors ruled mainly out of modern Cavan and had a good-sized country by the time the English came nocking. Eastern Breifne they called it. Wikipedia works wonders...

My clan was based in the Connemara Peninsula of modern day COunty Galway. Our name was originally Mac Conraoi before being Anglicized to "King" in the 18th century. We were traditionally a sea faring clan, who were also vassals of the Clan O'Flaherty. It used to be said in the COnnemara that a ship full of Mac Conraois and MacNallys was better than a ship full of gold. kingstowngalway


__________________
"I dare to put my trust in God's mercy. I have not fought for human glory. I have not succeeded in restoring the altars and the throne, but I have at least defended them. I have served my God, my King, and my country. I have known how to pardon."
--Last words of Major Artus, Marquis de Bonchamps, General of the Catholic and Royal army during the French "Devolution."
Hovite

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Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 66
Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingstowngalway
Actually, the idea of "surrender and regrant" as used by the English colonial authorities to try and break the Gaelic order, was something which the Irish Kings did not have the authority to do.


I leave the determination of rights and wrongs to judges and juries and concern myself solely with the facts of the case.

It is a fact of history that the last reigning King of Thomond surrendered his kingdom to Henry VIII and received in exchange the Earldom of Thomond (for life, with special reminder to his nephew Donough O’Brien, also for life), and also the Barony of Inchiquin (with the usual remainder to the heirs male of his body).

Donough O’Brien, 2nd Earl of Thomond (son of Conor O’Brien, penultimate King of Thomond), surrendered his title to Edward VI, and received a new grant with remainder to the heirs male of his body, thereby excluding his brother and tanist, Donnell O’Brien, from the succession to the Earldom, and introducing primogeniture into Ireland.

The Earldom descended in the O’Brien family until the death of Henry O’Brien, 8th Earl of Thomond, in 1741. A new Earldom of Thomond was created in 1756 for his eventual heir, namely his wife’s sister’s second son, Percy Wyndham, who assumed the surname and arms of O’Brien, but that Earldom perished with him in 1774.

 
Meanwhile, the Barony of Inchiquin continued to descend according to its original remainder. The 6th Baron was in 1654 created Earl of Inchiquin, and the 3rd Earl was in 1800 created Marquess of Thomond. The Earldom and Marquessate become extinct in 1855 on the death of the 3rd Marquess, but a kinsman, Sir Lucius O’Brien successfully proved his right to the Barony, and succeeded as 13th Baron. The 18th Baron of Inchiquin, Conor Myles John O’Brien, succeeded in 1982.

http://www.burkes-peerage.net/sites/Contents/book/Ireland/FHP/Peerage/fhp-INCHIQUIN.asp


kingstowngalway

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 40
Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovite
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingstowngalway
Actually, the idea of "surrender and regrant" as used by the English colonial authorities to try and break the Gaelic order, was something which the Irish Kings did not have the authority to do.


I leave the determination of rights and wrongs to judges and juries and concern myself solely with the facts of the case.

It is a fact of history that the last reigning King of Thomond surrendered his kingdom to Henry VIII and received in exchange the Earldom of Thomond (for life, with special reminder to his nephew Donough O’Brien, also for life), and also the Barony of Inchiquin (with the usual remainder to the heirs male of his body).

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><!--[endif]--> Donough O’Brien, 2nd Earl of Thomond (son of Conor O’Brien, penultimate King of Thomond), surrendered his title to Edward VI, and received a new grant with remainder to the heirs male of his body, thereby excluding his brother and tanist, Donnell O’Brien, from the succession to the Earldom, and introducing primogeniture into Ireland.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><!--[endif]--> The Earldom descended in the O’Brien family until the death of Henry O’Brien, 8th Earl of Thomond, in 1741. A new Earldom of Thomond was created in 1756 for his eventual heir, namely his wife’s sister’s second son, Percy Wyndham, who assumed the surname and arms of O’Brien, but that Earldom perished with him in 1774.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Meanwhile, the Barony of Inchiquin continued to descend according to its original remainder. The 6th Baron was in 1654 created Earl of Inchiquin, and the 3rd Earl was in 1800 created Marquess of Thomond. The Earldom and Marquessate become extinct in 1855 on the death of the 3rd Marquess, but a kinsman, Sir Lucius O’Brien successfully proved his right to the Barony, and succeeded as 13th Baron. The 18th Baron of Inchiquin, Conor Myles John O’Brien, succeeded in 1982.

http://www.burkes-peerage.net/sites/Contents/book/Ireland/FHP/Peerage/fhp-INCHIQUIN.asp


I am not able to respond with all the proper names and dates due to the fact that my copy of Peter Beresford Ellis's "Erin's Blood Royal" is currently being loaned to a friend. But I will do my best from mere memory. The following bit of Irish history illiustrates the policy of "surrender and regrant" as it was carried out and the effect it held over the Gaelic Clans. In the 16th century, The O'Neill, Prince of Tyrone, accepted an English title of Earl and adopted his own version of primogeniture. The Heir Apparent, or Tanaiste in Gaelic, was his younger son Shane O'Neill, known in Gaelic as Sean an Diomais or Shane the Proud. The O'Neill attempted to replace Shane with his eldest recognized son, Ferdorcha O'Neill, who was the illegitemite son of the Prince and a blacksmith's wife. Under Irish Brehon Law, however, a son is a son as long as his father recognizes him as such. Shane O'Neill, however, was not happy to say the least. He declared that his father had no right under Brehon Law to surrender the title of Prince for that of Earl. Even if he did so on behalf of himself, he definately had no right to renounce the title of Prince on behalf of all his potential heirs or to alter the succession without the consent of the rest of the family or of the rank and file clansmen. In all this Shane was right. Shane O'Neill raised the O'Neill and their vassal clans in revolt against his father and half brother. The Prince was declared deposed and fled to Dublin in disgrace, where he later died. Ferdorcha O'Neill was then murdered on Shane's orders. Ferdorcha's son Aodh Ruadh O'Neill, or "Red Hugh O'Neill," was spirited away to England to be groomed as the Queen's own candidate to the "Earldom." But as for Shane, he was annointed as "The O'Neill, Prince of Tyrone" and reigned over the North of Ireland until he was killed in battle against "The O'Donnell, Prince of Tyrconnell" several years later. His head was sent to the colonial authorities in Dublin. Aodh Ruadh O'Neill, Ferdorcha's son, would utilize his contacts with the English authorities and a political marriage to The O'Donnell's daughter to make himself the next Prince of Tyrone. Disgusted with the anti-Catholic policies and violent persecution of the English Crown, he would ally himself with King Phillip II of Spain and come very close to driving the Tudors out of Ireland. But after being defeated at the battle of Kinsale, he would flee to the continent, marking the final destruction of the old Ireland of Chief and Clan. kingstowngalway


__________________
"I dare to put my trust in God's mercy. I have not fought for human glory. I have not succeeded in restoring the altars and the throne, but I have at least defended them. I have served my God, my King, and my country. I have known how to pardon."
--Last words of Major Artus, Marquis de Bonchamps, General of the Catholic and Royal army during the French "Devolution."


Reply with quote  #11 

The title of the High King of Ireland was 'Ard-Ri na hEireann',which is the actual translation in Erse (Irish-Gaelic).I am not certain of what the titles of the regional Irish Kings were,but they definitely contained 'Ri na ....' in them.

 

Some Irish chiefs were known by the title 'The ....'.For example,there was a man who called himself 'The O'Rahilly' who fought in the aftermath of the 1916 'Easter Rising',which eventually led to the declaration of the Irish Free State or in Erse, 'Saorstat na hEireann') in 1922 as a Dominion of the British Commonwealth.

 

Aidan.



Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royalist0007

The title of the High King of Ireland was 'Ard-Ri na hEireann',which is the actual translation in Erse (Irish-Gaelic).I am not certain of what the titles of the regional Irish Kings were,but they definitely contained 'Ri na ....' in them.

 

Some Irish chiefs were known by the title 'The ....'.For example,there was a man who called himself 'The O'Rahilly' who fought in the aftermath of the 1916 'Easter Rising',which eventually led to the declaration of the Irish Free State or in Erse, 'Saorstat na hEireann') in 1922 as a Dominion of the British Commonwealth.

 

Aidan.

 

Interesting. Maybe a relative of mine? I need to check the family tree. Thanks for that information

Bearhunter

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 1
Reply with quote  #13 

I am a descendant of Diarmaid MacMurchadha, King of Leinster. And BTW Royalist, Gaeilge translates as "Irish" in the English tongue, not "Erse".


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hubertgaston

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Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 753
Reply with quote  #14 
You can perhaps write there:
The Standing Council of Irish Chiefs and Chieftains
c/o The O' Brien, Thomond House,
Dromoland,
Newmarket one Fergus,
County Clare, Ireland.


Reply with quote  #15 
"If it isn't minded for someone who is a predominantly Irish American to also chime in.
I don't see the British being re-accepted as monarchs due to their disastrous handling of the renegades in the War of Independence. I note King George being one of the only gentlemen in the British government who wanted things to go smoothly. I believe under his more direct leadership that things would have been averted for Irish independence.

"I think Ireland needs to start over with a new dynasty from one of their many royal families."

I was going to start a new thread to reply to this of Blayne's, the thread he made it on not being suitable for any protracted discussion that might ensue, then it occurred to me that my points had probably all been made before. Which they mostly had been on this thread.

The original and most of the subsequent historical High Kings were from the O'Neills. The O'Briens and O'Connors also both provided a few, one or two other families may have featured. There are numerous descents from these families, the Queen for example being descended from all three, as pointed out above. The families themselves all still exist in some form or another. Your problem is first, which one do you pick? And who within your selected clan is the strongest claimant? A total can of worms, especially as the strongest claim would be from the O'Neills, and their strongest claimant is a Portuguese gentleman, not Irish at all. The ancient laws of succession would be no guide, since to be kind you would say that they were very unclear, and to be unkind that they didn't appear to exist.

A second problem is the lack of tradition, in two senses. The first is that while all these families are descended from ancient and honoured royal lines, they have not as such been royal for centuries. The startling elevation of one of them would be at the root of the problem touched on above. The second is that High King of Ireland was at all times a nominal title (and frequently held "with opposition", that is with an anti-king also claiming it), the only people ever to exercise actual sovereign authority over the whole island for any long period were English or British monarchs. And in fact, however little loved it may have been, the rule of the Lords then Kings of Ireland extended over a considerably greater stretch of time than the historical era of the High Kings.

So, having been more recent, less of a legal fiction and longer lasting than the rule of the High Kings, I believe any restored Irish monarchy should derive from this tradition, also because there would be far less doubt as to the proper claimant. Of course, this is all just for argument's sake, as sadly restore the monarchy and, perhaps, return to Union, or at least Dominion status, is one thing Ireland is never ever going to do.
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