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jravago

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I hope this has not been discussed but this conclusion came to me yesterday after spending some time with Princess Maria Anna and Prince Piotr Galitzine.  I think Catholicism and Monarchism are not mutually exclusive ideas.  The Pope is the Spiritual and Temporal king of Catholics and Vatican City.  The Cardinals are his princes with the Bishops functioning as counts, etc.

Theology, doctrine, and policy ("Beliefs") are not based on popularity and who is the Pope at the time but on a moral code on a long term vision.  Also, our beliefs are handed down to us by a central leader who uses his appointment by God to rightly and justly rule over his people.  This holds true for the monarchy.

Therefore, a practicing Catholic has to embrace the tenets of monarchism because of their fidelity and trust in the Pope could easily be transferred to a monarch and they would be confident in knowing that their beliefs would be protected because the monarch's foundation which has always been based in religion.

Am I missing something or am do I just desire that everyone be a monarchist?


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I applaud you for expressing this and I agree completely. I am a monarchist because I am a Catholic. Thank you.

jravago

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Thank you Pio...I think this should be a forgone conclusion.

As a follow up, the Church and the Mass recognizes monarchism in the ritual. One example is in the Traditional Latin Mass, the procession is reserved for the clergy and those assisting.  One exception that I have seen is to allow, monarchs and religious military orders (Knights of Malta, Knights of the Holy Sephulcre, Constantinian Order of St. George) in the procession.  Another example is during the incensing.  The Royal Family was incensed after the priest and before the rest of the those assisting at Mass and the congregation.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by jravago
Thank you Pio...I think this should be a forgone conclusion.

As a follow up, the Church and the Mass recognizes monarchism in the ritual. One example is in the Traditional Latin Mass, the procession is reserved for the clergy and those assisting.  One exception that I have seen is to allow, monarchs and religious military orders (Knights of Malta, Knights of the Holy Sephulcre, Constantinian Order of St. George) in the procession.  Another example is during the incensing.  The Royal Family was incensed after the priest and before the rest of the those assisting at Mass and the congregation.

Historically monarchs were viewed as possessing an almost priestly character. As I wrote on the French Succession thread, the coronation ceremonies, particularly the anointing (the most important part of a coronation, despite the term), conferred a sacramental nature on the kingship- in fact Catholic coronations resembled in many ways the rites for the ordination of priests and the consecration of bishops. Some monarchs, including the Kings of France and the Holy Roman Emperors, were ordained subdeacons or deacons.

And the liturgical privileges did not end with the processions. Most monarchs, and their families, were given a place in the choir of the church, normally reserved to the clergy, often directly across from the episcopal throne. The Kings of France were allowed to recieve Holy Communion from the Chalice twice in their lives- at their coronation and on their deathbed. Many monarchs played a part in liturgical customs- especially the Holy Roman Emperor.
TheRoyalist

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I agree with the OP, but i think Conciliars have a different view on this
"The Church is not subject to one kind of government" they say
 I say that is rubbish

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royalcello

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Question for jravago: do you find that any other people at St. John Cantius are sympathetic to your views? 

Since you seem a little new at this (monarchism, not Catholicism), I feel like I should warn you that you may encounter bewildered or hostile reactions from some of your fellow American Catholics, even traditionalists, especially on the internet, though as an actual Catholic you'll have more credibility then I did when I used to argue about this.  You might find these archived discussions of interest though:

http://www.royaltymonarchy.com/opinion/trad.html

BaronVonServers

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Even if in communion with Rome, the link from Church governance to traditional national monarchy isn't as firm as all that. 

The Bishop's office isn't hereditary.  (despite certain middle period nephews)

The college of Cardinals isn't hereditary either - in fact, every good Western Rite boy can dream of the Papal Tiara. 

The Church is a Theocratic Meritocracy, not a Hereditary Monarchy.....

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The character of Kings is sacred; their persons are inviolable; they are the anointed of the Lord, if not with sacred oil, at least by virtue of their office. Their power is broad -- based upon the Will of God, and not on the shifting sands of the people's will... They will be spoken of with becoming reverence, instead of being in public estimation fitting butts for all foul tongues. It becomes a sacrilege to violate their persons, and every indignity offered to them in word or act, becomes an indignity offered to God Himself. It is this view of Kingly rule that alone can keep alive in a scoffing and licentious age the spirit of ancient loyalty that spirit begotten of faith, combining in itself obedience, reverence, and love for the majesty of kings which was at once a bond of social union, an incentive to noble daring, and a salt to purify the heart from its grosser tendencies, preserving it from all that is mean, selfish and contemptible.
-- Msgr. John Healy, Archbishop of Tuam, Ireland
BaronVonServers

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The Republic of Ireland, right?

I'm not at all implying that the Church didn't at one time uphold Monarchy as the best of governments.  I am however saying that organization of the Church, with its constant intake of new blood is no model of the historical, traditional monarchies, saving perhaps in Germany, with the orginal elected Kings, and the later HRE (with electors....).

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royalcello

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Since for Catholics priests are "Fathers," and the Pope is the "Holy Father," one could argue that the element of "paternity" exists in a spiritual sense even though not in a biological sense.
BaronVonServers

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Even at that the fathers electing the chief father isn't quite the same......
Nowhere else can every male have the hope of become the Sovereign.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
Even at that the fathers electing the chief father isn't quite the same......
Nowhere else can every male have the hope of become the Sovereign.

In theory but not in practice. And then one must always remember that the Pope is not chosen by the will of the cardinals but by the will of God.

jravago

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Reply with quote  #13 
Pio - I did read that thread and you make an excellent point...I forgot about that. I think St. Augustine also believed that monrachism was the best form of government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pio

Quote:
Originally Posted by jravago
Thank you Pio...I think this should be a forgone conclusion.

As a follow up, the Church and the Mass recognizes monarchism in the ritual. One example is in the Traditional Latin Mass, the procession is reserved for the clergy and those assisting.  One exception that I have seen is to allow, monarchs and religious military orders (Knights of Malta, Knights of the Holy Sephulcre, Constantinian Order of St. George) in the procession.  Another example is during the incensing.  The Royal Family was incensed after the priest and before the rest of the those assisting at Mass and the congregation.

Historically monarchs were viewed as possessing an almost priestly character. As I wrote on the French Succession thread, the coronation ceremonies, particularly the anointing (the most important part of a coronation, despite the term), conferred a sacramental nature on the kingship- in fact Catholic coronations resembled in many ways the rites for the ordination of priests and the consecration of bishops. Some monarchs, including the Kings of France and the Holy Roman Emperors, were ordained subdeacons or deacons.

And the liturgical privileges did not end with the processions. Most monarchs, and their families, were given a place in the choir of the church, normally reserved to the clergy, often directly across from the episcopal throne. The Kings of France were allowed to recieve Holy Communion from the Chalice twice in their lives- at their coronation and on their deathbed. Many monarchs played a part in liturgical customs- especially the Holy Roman Emperor.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
The Republic of Ireland, right?

Actually Msgr. Healy was Archbishop of Tuam at a time when all of Ireland was still under the Crown of England. In any case, even had Ireland been a republic at the time he was not speaking of a president or a prime minister, but a king. Is your own opinion sullied because of your residence in a republic? I would not judge your words by the nation in which you live, but by the words themselves.

jravago

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Royalcello - I have not encountered hostility in general.  Fr. Frank, the pastor, is not necessarily a big support of monarchism....That's not necessarily fair to say.  Before I was admitted to the Constantinian Order of St. George, I was discerning another group, Militia Templi...they are lay monastic group with strict rules.  Fr. Frank warned me that they have monarchist tendencies..I don't know if he was warning me because he doesn't agree with it or not.

I haven't had much discussions with many people about this issue but those who have discussed it with me acknowledge that the argument is logical and sensible.  I am anxious to see how other members of my order and of the other military orders (Malta, Holy Sephulcre) feel...I have my opinion and I think they are not favorable..ironic isn't it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by royalcello
Question for jravago: do you find that any other people at St. John Cantius are sympathetic to your views? 

Since you seem a little new at this (monarchism, not Catholicism), I feel like I should warn you that you may encounter bewildered or hostile reactions from some of your fellow American Catholics, even traditionalists, especially on the internet, though as an actual Catholic you'll have more credibility then I did when I used to argue about this.  You might find these archived discussions of interest though:

http://www.royaltymonarchy.com/opinion/trad.html


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