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Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #691 
The EU is by it nature and raison d'etre opposed to the nation states of Europe. It is no conspiracy to say that in some sense it is committed to at least creating a quasi-superstate. This has been the explicit goal of its leaders from the days of Jean Monnet and his Action Committee for a United States of Europe. It already wields huge amounts of power and influence, with more laws and regulations for Britain originating in Brussels than Westminster.* This is why there should never have been Tory Europhiles. If you believe that the nation-state is the still the best form of political organisation for Britain, I'm not sure what realistic economic problems of the transition could put one off Brexit. No deal on Brexit would be better than that for someone who believes in British sovereignty and identity.



Let's not forget, that the destruction or transition to obsolete status of the British nation-state endangers the monarchy. At the very least, it would downgrade the status of the monarchy, as happened to the lesser princes of Germany after unification.

* If anyone is interested in this issue, I strongly recommend doing some reading on the nature and extent of EU power and influence. It was eye-opening to me. Juncker isn't about to declare a superstate tomorrow, but I was still amazed, one, about the sheer amount of power and influence the EU wields and, two, about how much avowed federalism, achieved piecemeal, has been and is the EU's guiding principle. It has never been about free trade and a bit of cooperation. I recommend Booker and North's The Great Deception as the best introduction to Britain's relationship to Europe I know (up to 2005). Much of the debate about Brexit seems to miss the point precisely because it doesn't take place against a proper view of the EU.
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #692 
Well the EU is perceived as a German-dominated project, and the German Empire could only come into being by Prussia's land grabs of 1866.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #693 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter

PS Jovan to friend: Fancy a pint? Friend to Jovan: Is the Pope Catholic? Jovan to friend: No. You coming anyway?


The fellow I used to care for would tell people, 'Never ask Weismiller if the Pope is Catholic!' LOL!

__________________
'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #694 
It looks like Mrs. May will face a no confidence vote if she doesn't pull her government and party together behind her in the next couple of days.  She may end up quite weakened after such an occurrence, or even out of office.  I hate to say it but with Conservatives in such disarray a Corbyn Prime Ministership seems increasingly likely with dismal prospects for Brexit after that.  I'm not sure a change of Tory leadership can change this situation.  Her disastrous re-election campaign was the forerunner to this pending disaster for the party at large.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/987309/brexit-news-latest-theresa-may-no-confidence-vote-leadership-challenge

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/987332/brexit-news-theresa-may-tory-rebellion-eu-trade-bill-jacob-rees-mogg

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/chaos-brexit-britain-180711111520521.html

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/10/uk/theresa-may-uk-brexit-intl/index.html

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #695 
If the DUP allow it, there is no need for an election, even if May loses the leadership. The government can go full term with a new leader, even if they then lose badly. They can certainly continue beyond March next year. After that, we will have left the EU. It would be hard, then, for any Labour leader to take us back in, but the one good thing about Corbyn is I doubt he would even want to.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #696 
Daniel Hannan gives a good, down-to-earth take on May's Brexit position here:

https://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2018/07/daniel-hannan-my-view-of-mays-new-brexit-plan-its-just-about-better-than-no-deal-but-this-far-and-no-further.html

I find the standardising regulations on goods necessary a little less harmless than him. Yes, in some areas this is fine, but the EU has a tendency to push this to extremes. Standardising light bulbs, toilets, or how we serve sauce in restaurants (though perhaps this latter counts as a service) hardly seems necessary to free and open trade to me, and not the sort of power we should easily give to a foreign entity. Still, if we keep control of services, at least that is something. We should not give in on the customs union, or even what May seems to want to allow. Why on earth would we collect tarrifs for the EU?
Peter

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Reply with quote  #697 
The conundrum is, how can we leave the customs union while maintaining an open border with a state within the customs union? I would say the answer is 'We can't'. But the EU proclaimed as one of its numerous and inflexible negotiating positions that Ireland must in no way be disadvantaged by Britain's departure. The answer to that ought to have been 'Get real. We of course wish Ireland no harm, and will make every reasonable accommodation to mitigate the effects on our neighbour country. But what you are asking is impossible to achieve, unless Ireland chooses to leave with us -- an option always open to it.'

It's not quite so straightforward as that, of course, and never was. While the British government's first responsibility is to Britain not Ireland, Northern Ireland is part of Britain and would certainly be negatively affected by a hard border. While the people of Northern Ireland might have been told that though everything possible would be done to minimise the effects the reinstitution of customs and identity checks was unavoidable, their reply since the calamitous election would understandably be 'In that case, we'll bring the government down.' Yet another consequence of the electorate's decision to hamstring those responsible for looking after their interests and negotiating on their behalf..

Anyway, as far as I can see the peculiar tariffs proposal is an attempt to resolve the irresolvable Irish border question, as well as to create a compromise that Conservative Euromaniacs can be persuaded to support. The story of the Gordian Knot comes to mind, but even Alexander would have had trouble cutting through it if his own arms and legs had been lopped off first. Which, courtesy of the electorate, is what effectively happened to the Government. For me, no deal looks better with every day that passes.
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #698 
It doesn't help that Leo Varadkar is acting like a jerk on Brexit and the border. His attitude is a reversal for Anglo-Irish relations and disgraces the FG tradition of the Cosgraves.
DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #699 
British politics is now seeming more complex than ever - a country that is often said to have a two-party system appears to be more unstable than my own, which has like twelve parties in parliament! This is quite an achievement.

Like Ethiomonarchist I doubt if a change of Tory leadership would change much: the positions within the party seem so far apart that I wonder who could reconcile this. It's like there are two different parties within the conservatives.
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #700 
President Trump has waded into the Brexit debate during his visit.  It looks like the U.S. is pushing for a hard Brexit which isn't exactly what Prime Minister May has been working for.  At the same time he is pushing for advantageous terms for the U.S. in any bilateral trade agreement would be conditional on a hard Brexit.  It puts Mrs. May in a difficult position.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/07/12/trump-backed-brexit-then-he-used-it-as-leverage-219001

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-07-12/trump-s-u-k-trip-brexit-inspired-him-but-now-it-s-a-problem

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44799469

Mrs. May's Soft Brexit plans are nto receiving the warm welcome she would wish from any quarter.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-12/may-unveils-u-k-soft-brexit-blueprint-but-banks-are-cut-loose

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-warns-of-harsh-penalties-if-future-pms-break-brexit-deal-bsmcf6jwx

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/12/uks-latest-brexit-plans-likely-to-cross-eu-red-lines-barnier-hints

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Peter

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Reply with quote  #701 
The Prime Minister e-mails me from time to time. Not that she has the foggiest idea I exist, of course, I'm just on a Conservative Party mailing list. I thought people might be interested in this morning's communication, which gives Mrs May's decidedly sunny view of the Chequers plan that has caused such upheaval:
Dear Peter,
Today, we announced our detailed plan for Brexit. We’re taking back control of our borders, our money, and our laws.
This plan delivers on the result of the referendum:
  • Ending the free movement of people – so we control our borders.
  • Ending the huge annual payments we make to the EU – so we control our money.
  • Ending the rule of the European Court of Justice – so we control our laws.
We will cease to be a member of the European Union on 29 March next year.
Our Brexit plan means we can make our own trade deals. So we can protect British jobs – while creating new ones.
We will leave the EU’s Customs Union and Single Market – free to make our own trade deals with old friends and new allies around the world.
At the same time, we’re proposing a new free-trade area with the EU for goods, based on a common rulebook and a business-friendly customs model – so British business can continue to trade with our nearest neighbours in Europe.
But the decision whether to apply new rules on goods will be made in our Parliament, by the people you elect.
We’re also taking back control of our rural communities and our fishing waters – leaving the Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Fisheries Policy so our farmers and our fishermen can take decisions that are best for them.
Yours sincerely,
[image]
The Rt. Hon. Theresa May MP
Prime Minister & Leader of the Conservative Party
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #702 
Well, I admit to being confused! I've read several explanations of the Chequers Plan from both the Leave and Remain sides, and it seems to me that she's basically sold the farm. Having followed this since long before the referendum, I see this as remaining in the EU, just not being a 'member State'. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck, no matter what you call it.
__________________
'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #703 
It's very confusing indeed.  I think it's increasingly likely that there will be no agreement approved which will result in a hard Brexit next year.  This will have harsh economic consequences since it appears that there has been little planning for such a circumstance.  This will absolutely help Labor in the next election, and although Corbyn is not likely to want back into the E.U. once out (as Wessexman pointed out), but he will have a powerful weapon in blaming the Conservatives for botching Brexit and causing unnecessary hardships.

Theresa May should never have called that snap election only to campaign in such a lackluster way.  She REALLY screwed it up for her party.

__________________
The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
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