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Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #46 
Dutch Monarchist,

The EU has regulatory authority over a vast area of issues, from sport to justice. Much of this goes through the COREPER. What does not often is covered by qualified majority voting, in which no one country can prevent what it doesn't like being passed if it is outvoted. Whether or not the EU is close to a superstate is hard to pin down. But I think many would be truly astounded how much regulation and policy originates there. Sometimes it is even hard to discover it has originated there (for example, Prescott's regionalism plans), just as it is hard to discover exactly why many regulations have arisen. Integration and EU-wide authorities exist in a myriad of areas, and the amount is only growing. I think a good argument can be made that the EU, though not yet a state, is yet more than an international organisation. There is already a blurring of the lines so that one can't quite say where sovereignty lies. It is not so much the bureaucratic nature of the EU I'm singling out, as that its bureaucracy serves the goal of ever closer union - it works always to extend the power and influence of Brussels.

The peace argument is a reasonable one, but it has to be presented in the context of the nature of the EU. If the choice were the risk of the rise of European conflict or a superstate, I would not have Britain enter that superstate. I still think the nation state is the best way for Britain to organise itself politically. I also think it might not be the case that economic ties are enough to prevent war. War has occurred when such ties exist. I also think that the Monnet Method and further integration is likely to eventually cause tension. The whole method is a gamble. It relies on ever closer union to overcome national separatism. But there is a huge risk this won't occur when the leap towards explicit statehood is made. Or at least, there is a huge risk that in many nations there will always be a sizeable amount of the population who do not actively or even passively accept a United States of Europe. Civil war will be a real possibility, both within nations and throughout the EU.

Defence integration has stalled because as yet it is unpalatable. It wasn't so much the system that stopped it as the fact that integrating the sovereign nations of the Europe cannot always be done quickly. But once ideas for broad areas to be integrated are raised in Europe they only hibernate, to reappear, if they are not accepted immediately. They very rarely are abandoned all together. This is what happened with the single currency, for example.

It might be worth noting that Britain escaped the Euro by only hair's breadth. The Blair creature was all for it, as was everyone from Andrew Marr to Heseltine. The Eurocrats in Brussels and most of the other governments of Europe were predictably keen for Britain to join. Only Gordon Brown stopped us entering. If Britain remains in the EU, and the Euro ever recovers from its ongoing troubles (which hopefully it won't), the pressure for us to join will rise soon enough. There is always constant carping about Britain being in the slow lane of the EU. When Europhiles suggest that the slow lane cannot remain forever, they are correct. The way EU works is always towards greater integration. Eventually you either have to accept that, leave, or be pushed out.
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchMonarchist
Many opponents of the EU are trying to revive that nationalism. Marine le Pen spoke of a spring for European nationalism, and I believe that on this forum Ponocrates has said that Europe has to choose between nationalism and internationalism. Given the track record of nationalism in European history, I don't support that. 

The 'ever closer union phrase' has indeed been in the European treaties for sixty years now. And yet we still have no 'unified superstate' or something even close to it. There is no EU army or police force or constitution (that proposal was shot down ten years ago) nor can the EU tax people. Both new and old member states can refuse to use the Euro, as is seen in the UK, Poland and many other countries. No superstate there! Rather than focusing on the theoretical aim of the project I focus on its practical merits for Europe. I agree that any attempt to create one European state must be opposed, though.


Contemporary nationalism in much of Western Europe is a reaction not only to the European Union but also mass immigration, multiculturalism and the freedom-destroying Political Correctness. By contrast, nationalism in much of Eastern Europe is grounded in a reaction to their experience of Communism, and consequently a wariness of the left-liberalism prevalent in many Western societies which they see as a danger to their freedom and identity. The current Hungarian and Polish governments, as hard-Right as one can get, typify this with many of their policies - not least their reform of state media which I wish governments in Britain and Australia would do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchMonarchist
DavidV, if your point is that the EU cause is supported by some evil figures, I agree. But please remember this is true for your side as well. The EU is opposed by both fascists and parts of the far-left because of its capitalism - the radical environmental activist which Domhangairt referred to on that other thread is an example. Extremists on neither side of this debate are representative for the cause as a whole.


I know the EU has its Far Left and Far Right opponents, and they have made their primarily ideological case against the EU. The mainstream of the Brexit camp do not embrace extremists. The Remain camp, on the other hand, show an active disdain for democracy and freedom of speech revealed most recently in their attempt to make a martyr of the tragically slain MP Jo Cox. It's clear to me that you're more likely to be made a martyr for embracing the "correct" or progressive view of things. Her death was an appalling tragedy, but she was no Aung San Suu Kyi or other worthy and admirable figures.

The fact is that extremism on both Left and Right has found a constituency precisely as a result of EU policies, and the Cultural Marxists and Islamists among others find it much easier to attain their evil goals not only within the open borders of the EU, but globally as well. Therein lies the menace of the EU.
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #48 
Some Brexit quotes:

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/AS-I-SEE-IT-Brexit-and-the-Jewish-question-452536

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanie Phillips
People feel bound to their nation through shared ties of language, law, religion, history, culture and tradition expressed through democratically elected and accountable institutions. Only if Europe’s nations restore this connection will their people fight and die to defend them. The West can only be defended by an alliance of independent nations. No one will ever fight and die for Brussels.

There are other ways in which an independent Britain would benefit America, whose culture is also under siege from anti-Western loathing. That has been exported to it in large measure from Britain. If Britain leaves the EU and becomes again a proud and independent nation, it will detach itself correspondingly from the anti-democratic creed of utopian universalism.

That in turn will undermine its belief that Western nations are innately illegitimate and oppressive and the developing world always their victims.



http://www.bielarus.net/archives/2004/08/16/1097

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zianon Pazniak (Leader of Conservative Christian Party of Belarus)
"We don’t like the German and French project of the European federation. This form of the European Union is not based on some common spiritual idea. This form refuses the spiritual traditions of Christian Europe. Because of that the crisis of this form of the European Union is inevitable."

"(we) cannot accept the idea of the liberal super-state in the West instead of free Europe of the free peoples. We don’t have any interest to become part of this state. (We) accept more Europe of the Fatherlands"

Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #49 
Very sad that it appears that UK voters have chosen to remain in the EU.   No solid numbers yet.

http://news.sky.com/story/1716585/nigel-farage-looks-like-remain-will-edge-it


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Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #50 
HOW AGES VOTED
(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain

Shows that you get wiser and less indoctrinated as you get older.  

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Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #51 
Ok, there are signs that I've spoken too soon.
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Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #52 
This is hopeful, but still wait and see.

'Biggest uprising since Peasants Revolt in 1381'

Our chief political correspondent Christopher Hope puts the referendum into historical context.

The 2016 EU referendum is set to the biggest uprising against the people who run the UK since the Peasants Revolt in 1381.

Britain's bosses, politicians, church leaders, sports stars, bankers, economists and celebrities told the people to vote to Remain in the UK.

And (by the look of it now) the people sent back a massive V sign. Democracy indeed.

The people can enjoy the V sign for victory just as Winton Churchill did here in this picture Save

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Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #53 
As of 4:38 AM London Time, ITV News has now called a victory for Leave.

There are just 77 areas to declare and Leave have swept up more than 13 million of the 16.8 million votes needed to win. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-results-live-brexit-most-likely-outcome-says-leadi/

Amazing my friends.   This is amazing!



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Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #54 
I was a little too pessimistic. Praise be to God and God save the Queen!
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #55 

In the Left's war against Britain and British people, the British people have used the weapon of the ballot box to strike back. The people clamouring for Equality and Diversity show their true colours. They hate Democracy when people turn up and vote against them.

The very people the Chattering Classes, celebrities, academics and media elites have spat on, insulted, pilloried and demonised have voted you OUT today.

AugieDoggie

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Reply with quote  #56 
I admit that the pro-EU results in Scotland and Northern Ireland have me worrying what will happen in the future. But for now.....

Hurrah for Britain! God Save the Queen! And may the ties between the UK and the rest of the Commonwealth be strengthened! (Anyone up for cider? A toast is quite appropriate!)
Peter

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Reply with quote  #57 
If the margins had been such that Scotland's Remain vote was sufficient to overturn England's (and Wales's) Leave in the overall count, the larger, more populous and more prosperous part of the Union would have been expected to just suck it up. And in fact would have. It never seems to occur to Scots that this process might perhaps work in two directions. The fact that if they don't accept the democratic decision of the whole the financial handouts that keep them solvent will stop most probably will keep them grudgingly and whiningly aboard. But really, I have ceased to care what they might do.

A great deal of surprise and a certain amount of trepidation was my reaction to the news. This is a huge step into the unknown, but then again I wanted to take it, since the known was such a dreary prospect. Even if considerably more safe. It's like we've gone from one of those Russian novels where nothing happens for 793 pages then as the climactic moment someone's aunt dies, to a blood-and-guts thriller. Oh well, the next few chapters should be quite exciting at least.

PS If the above seems a little timid compared with the triumphalism that went before, remember I'm the first person to comment that actually lives here.
DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #58 
I already distrusted those polls saying the remain camp would win with a big margin. I'm sorry to see this result, but the British have made their own choice and can now go on with this path. Hopefully they will still work together with the EU when it is in our mutual interest.

I don't understand the reaction of DavidV at all, who claims that on this day 'the left' would have shown to have no respect for democracy. It sure seems that on this day democracy is respected by everyone. Labor MPs who have responded already have made it clear that the will of the people would be respected. 
ROO86

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Reply with quote  #59 
It's a great day for the the UK!

Maybe this will be a wake up call for the EU? Probably not. But at least Junker and co might not be so smug next time a country wants to negotiate a deal.

David Cameron's now on the way out and hopefully he takes Corbyn with him.
Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #60 
Keep it rolling.

Quote:
Voters in France, Italy and the Netherlands are demanding their own votes on European Union membership and the euro, as the continent faces a “contagion” of referendums.

EU leaders fear a string of copycat polls could tear the organisation apart, as leaders come under pressure to emulate David Cameron and hold votes.

It came as German business leaders handed a considerable boost to the Leave campaign by saying it would be “very, very foolish” to deny the UK a free trade deal after Brexit.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/23/the-brexit-contagion-how-france-italy-and-the-netherlands-now-wa/

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