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DavidV

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Because it is less than one week now to the UK European Union membership referendum, I am going to post here a detailed case for Brexit and why it matters.

I make no bones about what I believe, even if this makes me or my opinions unpopular among some people. We have been through this before with the 2014 Scottish referendum, one of the most important votes in modern political history. There are striking similarities between the two campaigns which are not coincidental, and it's obvious to anyone with a functioning brain why.

Because if you vote for Brexit, for a withdrawal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from the European Union, you are delivering a rebuke to a political elite globally that is increasingly reviled by ordinary people, and whose plans do not serve the interests of anyone anywhere but themselves.

Because if you vote for Brexit, you show that you believe in your country and are delivering a stunning rebuke to the insidious anti-British, and anti-Western Civilisation forces that are operating inside and outside Britain and have undermined belief in British honour, values, identity and freedom.

Commentators like Jennifer Oriel and Melanie Phillips have made the civilisational case for Brexit and why it matters. It matters because the European Union does not serve the interests of the nations and peoples of Europe, and the Western world, but in fact the very enemies of Britain, Europe and the West. Its very existence, open borders policy, transnational political elite and unaccountable institutions are a way for these very people - be they Leftists, Islamists, Irish Republicans, and for that matter every shade of terrorist you can name - a way to achieve their sinister goals.

The spread of the anti-freedom Cultural Marxist agenda not only in Britain and Europe, but also in other Western nations like the USA and Australia, has in fact been made easier by the European Union which directly or indirectly supports the very people and groups promoting these things, especially through education and media.

Britain and the Commonwealth, because of our very history and influence in the world, is under attack from within more than perhaps any other civilisation. As Phillips has said, the narrative is that Western Civilisation is "imperialist", "racist" and "oppressive" and it and its people must be destroyed from within, is one that is taught as orthodoxy in the English-speaking world, and the impetus for this has also been provided through the European Union.

It is this which has enabled Scottish nationalism to gain such traction and endanger the continued existence of the United Kingdom, increasingly in alliance with Irish Republicanism. It is no coincidence that the SNP and Sinn Fein, both allegedly "nationalist" parties, are campaigning for remain.

The Scottish referendum revealed the weakness of Britain's self-loathing liberal elites: why defend a country that you actually hate deep down, and see as responsible for all world ills? This hatred of Britain and Britishness that is rampant on the Left and within Labour (not least in certain minority constituencies they rely on) has in fact crippled the effectiveness of Labour where both Scotland and the EU are concerned.

Nowhere is this more evident than the fact that Jeremy Corbyn, whose ascent to Labour leadership was aided and abetted by those same forces I mentioned above (Marxists, Islamists and Republicans) is part of the Remain campaign despite the belief that his heart may not be in it. Corbyn really has no choice because those same forces see the EU as a way to achieve their goals more easily.

This also explains the fact that the pro-Brexit Left, though we momentarily accept they are part of the Big Tent and they are doing what they can in support of the cause, has had to make its own purely ideological case (as well as a pragmatic one) in favour of withdrawal from the EU. The late Tony Benn was consistently anti-EU, as is the SLP led by Arthur Scargill and other Far Left sects.

Those on the Right also make their case for Brexit, drawing upon British values, culture and history to do so. For starters, Britain's relationship with the Commonwealth and the Anglosphere in general, is one that must receive utmost priority as a civilisational project. But at the same time, Brexit is not about turning backs on Europe. In fact, it is quite the opposite - saving Europe from itself by showing another way forward.

This is especially needed in Eastern Europe, where national sentiment is strong despite embracing EU membership. The right-wing governments of Hungary and Poland are increasingly wary of EU policy (especially on immigration) and draw the ire of the EU and liberals. They are no longer realistically part of the "European project". The Czech Republic and Slovakia show similar grumblings, and then there is the unresolved Ukraine issue. What we in the Brexit camp must do is reach out to these countries and demonstrate that Brexit will be of benefit to them as well - a chance for a new Europe where the EU can be disbanded and interlocking alliances of sovereign nations can take its place.

Finally, Brexit and disbanding the EU can also help solve the problem of a broken global system, littered with failed states arising from decolonisation, in no small part because Britain's own liberal elites allowed it to happen. The Commonwealth and the Arab League, neither of whom working as well as they should, at least make sense in a way the EU never can.

Whatever the outcome, the EU is an institution doomed to collapse. It cannot be reformed and lacks democratic accountability to its member states and the electorates thereof. The European Parliament is a powerless body akin to the legislatures of Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union or the Islamic Republic of Iran. Not a flattering comparison. Like the Soviet Union and Apartheid South Africa, it takes a sudden development or two to accelerate an inevitable collapse.

Britain can and MUST be a trailblazer not just for its own sake, but for Europe and the world. We have a chance to save our world. Vote the right way, vote Brexit on the 23rd.

royalcello

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Reply with quote  #2 

Hear, hear! For the second time in two years, I bitterly wish I could vote.

 

While this year's U.S. presidential election is more...interesting than most, the UK's EU referendum still matters more to me. Vote Leave!

Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #3 
I agree with what most of you've said for the most part David.  I think the E.U. is a failed experiment that is doomed anyway.  I'm not a huge fan of the far right arguments for the most part, but I'm no fan of this leftist pan-Europeanism either.  I do have three rather big connected concerns though:
  • Will a vote for Brexit trigger an economic and financial crisis
  • Will a vote for Brexit trigger a reinvigorated independence push in Scotland
  • Will this cause the collapse of the Schengen treaty that opens European borders to foreign travelers necessitating only one visa to visit multiple countries?  Will border controls go back up?

These three very real possibilities give me serious pause, but not enough to advise anyone to vote "Remain".

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #4 
do have a vote, and intend to put my X against Leave. Not for many of David's reasons, though one or two of those do resonate with me. For me, it was all contingent on the result of the renegotiations. If the other EU countries showed that they recognised the real risk of Britain leaving and were willing to offer serious concessions, that would have been good enough for me. Evidently, they did not and weren't (Poland, despite David's remarks, being among the leading intransigents), so I conclude that we should get out. The ride will no doubt be bumpy at first, in fact rather worse than that, but other, smaller countries survive perfectly well and indeed prosper outside the EU, as we once did. And, I believe, can again.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #5 
I support Brexit because of the nature of the EU.

The idea that EU has at its end a United States of Europe is no fever dream of fringe Eurosceptics. If you look into the history of the EU, this was clearly the desire of the leading voices behind it - Jean Monnet, Spinelli, Spaak. One of the earliest pressure groups for the European project, one founded by Monnet himself (he is officially recognised as a founding father of the EU), was called the Action Committee for a United States of Europe. After some initial setbacks, the powers behind the early European project decided on what has become known the Monnet Method, to advance their goals. This method involved not openly admitting their federalist goals (though you didn't have to look too deeply to find them out) or trying too quickly to achieve them. Instead, they decided that piecemeal, gradual additions to what is known as the acquis communautaire, or store of powers and competences of the European project, would be the best way to achieve their goals. Once a power or competence was added to the acquis communautaire it was never to be relinquished. This way ever closer political union could be reached without, it was hoped, arousing too much opposition.

Political union was always the supreme goal of the European project. Economic union was always secondary, but it was an important means of achieving political union - it was thought that by binding together the economies of Europe you would bind together the nations politically. This is why chancellor Erhard's suggestion of a free trade zone was rejected in favour of a single market. A free trade zone says nothing about the trading arrangements of member states with states outside the zone. A single market bound together the economies of its members and gave power to those running the union to determine many of the trading relations of members with non-members.

The EU is not monolithic. There have been many influences on it. De Gaulle, for example, had no desire to see a United States of Europe and used the European project to benefit France (France has often used the EU for its own benefit). But, from all I have seen, federalism and the Monnet Method are still are the very centre of the European project. Jacques Delors could address a crowd at Maastricht and tell them that federalism must be their guiding principle (apparently he also told Major he had got rid of one prime minister and could get rid of another). The power of the EU over its members states, helped by conniving or disinterested politicians and civil servants, is already immense. Qualified majority voting is used in everything from economics to social policy. The COREPER (or Committee of Permanent Representatives) already originates more laws and regulations for Britain than the Westminster parliament does.

The renegotiations had very little chance of success (whether or not Cameron knew this I leave to his conscience). It is central to the EU that powers surrendered to it are not given up. A substantive repatriation of powers to Britain would have undermined the Monnet Method, which is almost to say the EU itself (as the Eurocrats understand it).  

If one understands the nature of the EU, then it isn't a hard choice to make. That is, for anyone who believes the nation state is still the best way for Britain to politically organise itself. It is a shame that the real issues don't often get aired. The British Europhiles never raise federalism. The most they ever do is make vague allusions to the evils of nationalism. The leave side could have made powerful adverts just out of the pro-federalist comments of leading Eurocrats down the years. Coupled with clear examples of the truly staggering power and influence the EU already wields (it gives money to large NGOs and businesses in return for support, for example; it appoints and provides for officers in large local authorities and in universities; the British civil service is already more or less twinned with that in Brussels), I think this would have been very powerful.

The Scottish issue doesn't worry me that much because it seems likely that if we stay in the EU the union will be dissolved into a European quasi-superstate anyway. For an official referendum, the Westminster parliament would have to agree, which is unlikely so soon after the last one. Besides, there is something faintly ridiculous about Scottish nationalists fighting so hard to leave Britain just to tie themselves to a fledgling superstate.
Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #6 
I'll also be watching this vote with great anticipation.   Hoping Brexit wins.
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Cenebrand

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Reply with quote  #7 
There shouldn't even be the need to make a case. it's obvious that the EU is rotting carcass.

I believe the whole thing was cooked up by the Germans and the Frogs to neuter Great Britain.

The Brits had done huge damage to themselves with their embrace of Socialism and then, after the war, when they had a chance to really get going again here comes this EU nonsense and they're right back in the muck. 

GB doesn't need to be shackled to this shambling corpse that is Europe. GB was once the greatest industrial nation on Earth. And while they can't match the US now they can come stand on the podium with us. But only if they cast off the fetters.

I hope it passes and when it does I hope all the idled British fishermen take to their boats and head out to their fishing grounds and run off the foreign vagabonds.

Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #8 
It looks like it may be close to all over:

Quote:
http://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/countdown-to-brexit-asian-markets-will-be-the-first-to-react-20160619-gpmyvm.html

However, the latest polls show the "remain" camp back in charge, in part because of revulsion over the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox, allegedly by a staunch supporter of the Britain First hard-right nationalist movement. In one weekend poll, published in the UK's Sunday Mirror, support for a so-called Brexit dropped seven percentage points, to 38 per cent, following news of the assassination.

After surging to its highest ever level last week, support for Brexit is back down, offering markets some relief.

After surging to its highest ever level last week, support for Brexit is back down, offering markets some relief.

Bloomberg's latest "poll of polls" reflects this shift in sentiment, showing a marked drop in support for Britain's exit from the EU.



 



Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #9 
This is common in history, but it's pathetic that a single incident should shape the outcome of this vote and the future of Britain.  
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DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #10 
Other polls still suggest that it will be close.

I agree that the future of a whole country shouldn't be shaped by an incident. Though I can't really blame politicians for making use of a situation. If a person from the other side had been murdered the pro-Brexit camp wouldn't feel above profiting from that either, I am sure. If that had happened we would not have multiple posts here blaming the whole left for it.

I'm probably alone on this forum in my hope that Britain will stay in. Proponents of Brexit here may come to regret their position one day if it would result in Scotland leaving the union - it was already pretty close in the previous referendum, and the polls show that Scotland is overwhelmingly in favor of staying in the EU. Regardless it is up to the British to make their own choice now, and even if they leave I hope there will be fruitful cooperation between the UK and the EU. 

royalcello

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Reply with quote  #11 

That is mostly a myth circulated by Remain alarmists. Actually Scots are only slightly more pro-EU than the rest of the UK, not "overwhelmingly." And there cannot be another referendum without agreement from Westminster, which has no reason to agree with it. The question of Scottish independence was settled for at least a generation (i.e. about 25 years) in September 2014.

It's been over 16 years now since the Australian referendum, but while the republicans fuss and fuss they're (thankfully) nowhere near getting a second referendum scheduled.

 

I can't understand why any monarchist, Dutch or British, could want Britain to stay in the EU or the EU to survive at all. The idea of an unaccountable supranational authority which is neither democratic nor traditional holding any kind of status above national monarchs (even if it were purely symbolic, which it isn't) is intolerable. I find the fact that currently I could not become a UK citizen and swear allegiance to the Queen without also becoming a citizen of the EU repugnant. I don't want to be a citizen of the EU or recognise any political authority higher than the Crown. There is nothing authentically European about the EU; it is the epitome of the modernist, post-Christian, post-monarchical, pseudo-democratic, post-1945 Europe that I despise. Its buildings are as ugly as its spirit is. I hate the EU because I love Europe--the Europe of principalities and kingdoms that needed no EU to develop the greatest civilisation in history. I want a Europe of nations, not a nation of Europe dominated by the functionaries of illegitimate republics and emasculated monarchies that are not permitted to be truly sovereign. I hope not only that Britain will leave but that this evil republic-infested monstrosity will crumble entirely before too long.

DavidV

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Reply with quote  #12 
The Remain camp have tried to demonsise the Leave camp as "racists" and "jingoists" among other things and have tried to make Jo Cox a martyr, which is easy to do when she supported fashionable causes, as reprehensible her murder was.

That's because many of the Remain camp are the very sort of people who, at their core, hate British people, values, culture and institutions. This is essentially the very heart of what the Labour Party is. A party that cultivates victim groups and tries to undermine Britain from within. This has not always been the case with Labour but that element was always there. They've always relied on certain ethnic voting blocs which disproportionately shape its policy and worldview which is essentially anti-British.

The European "Parliament" has in fact less effective power than the House of Lords and perhaps even the monarchy in its present form. Which is to say, none at all. And this is the only "democratic" element of EU institutions.
DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #13 
I was basing myself on the wikipedia page at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Scotland

The page says that "Support for remaining in the EU is significantly higher in Scotland than it is in Great Britain as a whole, with Scottish voters saying they are more likely to vote." Then searching for 'Scotland' on this page suggests a poll in the period 6-12 June 2016 saying that 58% of the Scots would want to remain and 33% would want to leave. If these numbers are anywhere true that's pretty significant, although saying overwhelming was too much. Maybe there are other polls suggesting different things.

I've always been surprised by the argument that the EU is not democratic being used so much here. The EP is elected directly, the Council consists of people elected in the member states, the Commission is appointed by the former two. Could it be more democratic? Maybe, but more democratic doesn't equal better to me! Nobody here would support the EU if it was more democratic, I think, so the argument seems disingenuous.

My main argument for supporting the EU is that I believe it has contributed to peace in Europe. The World Wars absolutely destroyed the European position in the World, were atrocious for the European people and almost any European monarchy that fell did so in the context of an international war (France the last time in 1871, many more in World War I and many more World War II). I know that there may be more factors that contributed to peace, like the existence to nuclear weapons, but I don't trust that's enough. Nuclear weapons would have been used if they had been invented in 1938, and war is not something you take any risks with anyway.

I also like the EU because it puts at least some limit on the ridiculous amount of borrowing money to build ever larger welfare states.

The EU is as much Christian, egalitarian or whatever as its member states are. If the large member states were more Christian, so would the EU. So why blame the EU for all those modern values? France is post-Chrstian and post-monarchial too, but you don't want to abolish France, just to change it. So why not strive to change the EU, then? 


Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #14 
Dutch Monarchist, But do you wish Holland to be a province within a United States of Europe? Because that is essentially the choice before each nation of the EU. As I said, this is not some Eurosceptic fever dream; if one acquaints oneself with the history of the EU, it is clear.

The EU already wields immense power. One can already question the degree to which Britain is, de facto at least, a sovereign and independent nation.


I find the claims about peace from Europhiles a little overwrought. I think it was overwhelmingly the presence of the Soviets and changed geopolitical situation that prevented another European war. I don't deny the EU now helps, but I don't think it is the major reason for peace on the continent. I also don't think this has much to do with Britain. Britain's presence in the EU will make little difference to whether it maintains peace on the continent.

The Union will eventually be dissolved I'd we remain in the EU. The Scots had their vote. They are unlikely to be officially granted one any time soon. If they have one, though, it will just speed up what Brussels will do in the end.

In the end I believe the nation-state is still the best way for Britain to organise itself, so as to protect our historic identity, culture, and political and legal system. Roger Scruton expresses my sentiments on the continued importance of the nation-state well:

http://spectator.org/45795_nation-state-and-democracy/

Quote:
A nation-state is a form of customary order, the byproduct of human neighborliness, shaped by an “invisible hand” from the countless agreements between people who speak the same language and live side by side. It results from compromises established after many conflicts, and expresses the slowly forming agreement among neighbors both to grant each other space and to protect that space as common territory. It depends on localized customs and a shared routine of tolerance. Its law is territorial rather than religious and invokes no source of authority higher than the intangible assets that its people share. All those features are strengths, since they feed into an adaptable form of pre-political loyalty.


For Britain, or England, the nation is still the best form of identifying ourselves, of creating the roots in place and historic communities that make things like the rule of law and rights and liberties more than abstractions.


bator

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Reply with quote  #15 
i as a dane also want a brexit and i am in britain now to try to help the leave side. there could be chances that a brexit might leading to a dansih referendum and exit too.
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