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Peter

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Reply with quote  #61 
It is a general conclusion of scholars that Alessandro de Medici, Duke of Florence, was the illegitimate son of Pope Clement VII, even though he was presented as the illegitimate son of Lorenzo II de Medici, Duke of Urbino (father of Catherine de Medici, Queen of France) instead. On this thread I am concerned with biological ancestry, and the scholarly consensus is good enough for me. The Pope certainly treated him in an exceptionally favourable way for what would have been a first cousin twice removed; like a son, in fact.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #62 
Ah,

I sit corrected then, thanks!


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Peter

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Reply with quote  #63 
I thought you were correcting me! All the other illegitimate children of Popes that I cited were openly acknowledged, Alessandro being the exception, and I wondered whether I ought to mention that. I decided that it didn't matter since the identification seemed so certain, but your post showed me I was wrong and should have said something.

While writing, I couldn't seem to stay away from genealogical poking around today, and found another interesting English ancestor for Prince Richard-Casimir of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and his sister Princess Tatiana (post #36); John Hampden, perhaps the most honourable man on the Parliamentary side in the English Civil War, but unfortunately a first cousin of the Tyrant, the least.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #64 
Now I'll need to go research John Hampden - honourable men in regicide company - oh my.

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Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #65 

Some have speculated that Pope Clement VII negotiated the marriage of the orphaned Catherine de Medici to Henri of Orleans, younger son of King Francis I of France as a way to remove the only legitimate child of Lorenzo II from the scene in Florence and from the possibility of marriage to her cousin Ipolitto de Medici (later Cardinal).  Marriage of Catherine to Ipolitto would have put a wrench in the desires of the Pope to elevate Alessandro to the Duchy of Florence.  Catherine was valuable to the French thanks to her huge French maternal inheritance, and her being placed in a politically minor marriage in France cleared the way for Alessandro in Florence, irritated the Emperor Charles V for whom neither the Pope or the King of France had any affection, and fit into everyone's plans nicely.  No one at the time could have forseen that Francis I's elder son would die before his father and that Henri would be come King, paving the way for Catherine to become the most formidable of Queen-mothers, presiding over the reigns of three sons who became the last of the Valois Kings of France, and over the tumult of the French reformation.


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Peter

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Reply with quote  #66 
Referring back to #58, this is what is available to us if those links from the last name shown to Ramiro II of Leon can be confirmed. Along with other fascinating stuff I haven't shown, like descents from a natural daughter of the Empress Theodora, consort of Justinian I, and from Constantius Chlorus, father of Constantine the Great. Unfortunately although convincing and plausible the chain can't quite be regarded as authenticated at every link. Nice to dream, though. Names above are parents, below children, alongside with an m spouses, in red Roman Emperors.

[Chart now deleted to save people's scrolling fingers, see replacement below. In that chart, ignore the dotted line under Teudo, C. of Coimbra, it's a typo which I can't now fix as the forum software declares when I try to post any change that the post is too long and can't be saved, even if it's shorter than what was there already. Oh well.]
Peter

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Reply with quote  #67 
Here's an extended version of the table, now going all the way down to Ramiro II and up to Constantine I, the Great (I had overlooked that there is a direct as well as collateral descent from him) and his father Constantius I, known as Chlorus. I'm not sure if I made myself quite clear before; going up and down within boxes is from child to parent and vice versa. The spouses alongside are the other parent of the child below, or there would be no point in naming them, so m is effectively a bridge you can cross between two boxes. Note that you can only navigate laterally between boxes, in other words a dotted line above or below cannot be crossed, only one at the side where there is an m.

It would be wonderful if this genealogy could be sufficiently authenticated, providing as it does not only traceable descent from some of the greatest Emperors from before the fall of the West, but also from the Merovingians, from whom, pace The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, there is no certainly known descent whatsoever.

Constantius I

Constantius I

 

Maximian

Julius Constantius

Constantine I

m

Fausta

Constantius Gallus

m

Constantina

Valentinian I

Theodosius I

m

Aelia Flacilla

Anastasia

m

father NN

Galla

m

Theodosius I

Arcadius

Gallus

Galla Placidia

m

Constantius III

Theodosius II

father NN

Valentinian III

m

Licinia Eudoxia

Anastasia

m

Pompeius

Anicius Olybrius

m

Placidia

 

Paulus

Areobindus Dagalaiphus

m

Anicia Juliana

Empress Theodora

 

 

Irene

m

Olybrius

 

Theodora

m

Anastasius

 Anicius Probus Jr

m

Proba

 

Clovis I, K. of the Franks

 (illegitimate)

 

Anastasius

m

Juliana

 

 

Clotaire I, K. of the Franks

 

 

Aerobindus

 

 

Liuvigild, Vis. K. of Spain

 

Sigibert I, K. of Austrasia

 

 

Anastasia

m

Peter Augustus

 

Ermengild

m

Ingunthis

 

Flavia Juliana

m

Athanagild

 

Ardabastos

 

Erwig, Vis. K. of Spain

 

 

Cixilio

m

Ergica, Vis. K. of Spain

 

Sisebuto, C. of Coimbra

 

Ataulfo, C. of Coimbra

 

Atanarico, C. of Coimbra

 

Teudo, C. of Coimbra

Ermengildo, C. of Coimbra

Ermengildo, C. of Coimbra

Ermengildo, C. of Coimbra

Ordoño II, K. of León

m

Elvira

Ramiro II, K. of León

Venetian_Patritian

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Reply with quote  #68 
Thank you, Peter, for your post and the chart, and thank you very much for the information that the "Count Ardabastos link" could be the only traceable line of descent not only from Theodosius I and Valentinian I (the descent from Constantius Chlorus and Constantine the Great, from my limitated point of view, seems to be more "questionable") but also from the Merovingians, and Clovis I in particular.
Can you tell me where did you recover the information for the genealogy from Count Ardabastos, and in particular his grand daughter Cixilio, down to Ermegildo Guterres?
In those days surnames where patronymic, and Guterres (the modern Portuguese form, the Spanish it would be Gutierrez) should mean "son of Gutierre" and the last name of your chart is Teudo...
However, your chart further increases the importance of what can be called the "Count Ardabastos link"... I really hope that "professional" genealogists and historians (and their more recent colleagues, the "prosopographists") start working on it trying to "validate" its more obscure passages.



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Peter

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Reply with quote  #69 
As I see it, and this is purely based on reading of what seemed like ever so many Wikipedia articles, you are correct that the descents from the Constantinian dynasty (and Maximian via them) are perhaps less solid than other parts. They are not unreasonable to suggest, though, and as you also correctly observe even without them the other links if proved to the present day would be a treasure trove. From Cixilio to Teudo was obtained from Wikipedia, which does not however provide a chain from him to Hermenegildo Gutterres (my last Count Ermengild), but merely asserts that there is a deed providing one.

A search led me to a Portuguese GeneAll page on him, which provided a father of the same name. Clicking on him led to his father of the same name, and on him to Teudo and thence backwards as I had already got from Wikipedia. This isn't intended as scholarly research, and I was satisfied to have found some sort of names from somewhere. My intention was not to pretend to have established anything about these descents, but to show graphically how exciting they would be if verified. From your post I succeeded in that, it seems. It would be great if dedicated scholarly research did in fact succeed in proving the link between Hermenegildo Gutteres and the earlier Counts of Coimbra. However, so obscure and troubled was the period that this task may well be impossible to achieve. Or, of course, the link could always have been fiction created to puff up the Count's ancestry. Until that's proved I will though continue to dream.
Venetian_Patritian

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Reply with quote  #70 
Hi Peter, I searched the Portuguese GaneAll page on the Counts of Coimbra and Hermenegildo Guterres. In the first post of the thread, I read (also if my Portuguese is far from fluent) that Hermenegildo Guterres was the son of Guterre, in turn son of another Hermenegildo (Guterre patronymic, Menendes/Menendez, see this site, states so), son of Teudo, son of Athanarico, son of Sisebuto, probably son of Egica, Visigothic King of Spain or of the latter's son Witiza, also king.
From the thread it seems that the two version of the same document that attest this genealogy are of questionable authenticity. Certainly they contain anochronism and use a language too modern, but from the point of view of chronology and onomastics of the genealogy they are consistent, at least this was the opinion of one of the two "posters", Francisco(?) Doria...In the second post he says that also if the document is false, the genealogy could be true. However it seems that, in 2003, they were not aware of the more distant ancestors of the later Count of Coimbra, ancestor of a good part of the whole Portuguese nobility.
Another interesting thing to say is that once I saw a genealogy of king Juan Carlos that considers him direct descendant of king Erwig, the son of Count Ardabastos, through Peter of Cantabria...

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #71 
My Portuguese doesn't exist, so I let Google translate it. I had the same thought, that even if the deed is false (which seems likely) the genealogy need not be. Indeed, it could have been taken from a then-existent real deed, not known to us, and used to give authenticity to the false one.

Descent from Peter of Cantabria is universal for all European royalty, he was actually an ancestor of Ramiro II for which the same is true. So if he could be proved to have these descents the identical effect would be achieved, and we could forget the Counts of the Christians of Coimbra, as their title was in full.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #72 

Returning to Peter of Cantabria, the unsurprisingly brief (he died in 730, so hardly lived in one of the better-chronicled periods of history) Wikipedia entry on him states that, while various writers have tried to make him a son or brother of King Erwig (reigned 680-687, so son seems more likely), early sources only say that he was of the blood of Liuvigild and Reccared. Recarred was the son of Liuvigild and younger brother of Ermengild above. Ermengild was exiled and later murdered for a rebellion against his father in the Catholic interest, which is how Reccared came to succeed (and, ironically, outlaw Arianism and establish Hispania as a Catholic kingdom) and why Athanagild fled to Byzantium, where he met and married Flavia Juliana.

So while the line of Recarred would certainly be of great interest for its Gothic descents if it could be traced to the present day, it would lack the Roman and Frankish descents which are of even greater interest. But actually if Peter was the son of Erwig he would also be of the blood of Reccared:

 

Clovis I, K. of the Franks

 

 

 

Clotaire I, K. of the Franks

 

Athanagild, K. of Hispania

 

 

Liuvigild, K. of Hispania

 

Sigibert I, K. of Austrasia

m

Brunhilda

 

 

Liuvigild, K. of Hispania

 

Ermengild

m

Ingunthis

 

Sisebut, K. of Hispania

 

Recarred I, K. of Hispania

 

Athanagild

 

Chintila, K. of Hispania

 

Theodora

m

Suintila, K. of Hispania

 

Ardabastos

 

Tulga, K. of Hispania

 

Liuvigoto

m

Erwig, K. of Hispania

 

Ariberga

Cixilio

m

Ergica, K. of Hispania

So it's still possible. The later Visigothic kings did not tend to be remembered fondly, while Liuvigild was a successful and admired ruler and his son Recarred's reputation was of course enhanced by his conversion to Catholicism, which perhaps could explain the vagueness of the reference and it only pointing to these earlier kings. I have kept Cixilio and Ergica in the chart to further illustrate a point about the Visigothic monarchy; it may have been elective, but being descended from earlier kings certainly helped you get elected.

Venetian_Patritian

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Reply with quote  #73 
IMHO, at this point, I think that we really cannot forget/discard the genealogy of the "Counts of the Christians in Coimbra" (probably the better way to referring to their title during the Islamic rule of Hispania-Al Andalus) if we want to trace a descent line from the last Roman Emperors or the Merovingians down to modern European dynasties ;-)
However, when Hermenegildo Guterres decided to be no more the highest-ranking-dhimmi of Coimbra but to join the kingdom of Léon in the struggle against the Moors, he became (after the conquest of the city) the first "true" (in the modern sense) Count of Coimbra.
I really hope to see some modern historian "picks up" the two documents reporting the genealogy of the Counts of Christians in Coimbra, and tells us more than just opinions, the latest "professional" study cited in GeneAll thread dates back to the beginning of the twentieth century: Francisco Javier Simonet, « Historia de los Mozarabes de Espana. Tomo I, Los virreyes (anos 711 a 756) », Madrid, 1897-1903.


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"Viva San Marco!" (The motto of the Most Serene Republic of Venice)

"Vicit Leo de tribu Juda, radix David"(Ap. 5,5)

"Pax tibi Marce, Evangelista meus" (Peace be upon you, o Mark, my Evangelist)
Venetian_Patritian

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Reply with quote  #74 
Peter, I would suggest you to add in the biggest chart (the one from the late Roman emperors to Ramiro II of Léon) also the ancestry of Areobindus Daglaiphus, the husband of Anicia Iuliana. He has an interesting gothic and alanic-iranic heritage, in particular he was the grand-grandson of Aspar, the powerful magister militum of Eastern Roman Empire and the perhaps the "true ruler" of the Empire at least until the conspiracy against him in 471.

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"Viva San Marco!" (The motto of the Most Serene Republic of Venice)

"Vicit Leo de tribu Juda, radix David"(Ap. 5,5)

"Pax tibi Marce, Evangelista meus" (Peace be upon you, o Mark, my Evangelist)
Peter

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Reply with quote  #75 
I now have several versions of the chart, the latest one incorporating all the Visigothic Kings listed in #72. I will take a look at your suggestion and then perhaps post a download link to the chart, since the forum software won't seem to allow me to post any more versions.

I agree that the Counts of Coimbra are not to be dismissed; my meaning was only that if a confirmed descent from Erwig was found through someone else we wouldn't need to find it also through them. I do find the chain through them reasonable and plausible, though unfortunately very far from verified. Peter of Cantabria provides an alternative, that's all, though we don't even know who his father was and are unlikely ever to. But as he was a person of consequence in that age a noble Visigothic lineage seems very likely, and normally that would include royal descents. We just don't have the detail, alas.
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