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royalcello

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Reply with quote  #46 
Will he really?  Recently here in Texas I visited an exhibition that included the mummified remains of a contemporary of Genghis Khan and she didn't look like she was about to do any plundering.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #47 
Traceable descent from Genghis is quite widespread in the Russian nobility. While it's by no means certain that a person who can trace to a Russian noble family will thence be able to find a way back to the great warlord, it's quite likely with a bit of effort and perseverance that they can. In fact his line, including from the contentious Jochi, was one of the three main sources of the higher nobility, the others being from Rurik of course and from Gediminas, an early Grand Duke of Lithuania who was the forefather of the Jagiellon royal dynasty as well as a number of Polish and Russian noble houses.

Whether descent from Genghis should be a matter of pride rather than interest is a matter of opinion. Undoubtedly a man of genius and a good man by his own lights, he was by some reckonings the greatest mass killer in history, surpassing even Mao, Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot. I suppose even that was a feat considering the technology at his disposal, but not exactly one to look back and rejoice in.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #48 
Another descent for Princess Sophie, this time from Thomas, Despot of Morea, brother of Constantine XI, the last Byzantine Emperor. Going forwards on this occasion:

Thomas Palailogos, Despot of Morea
Helena Palailogina m Lazar II Brankovic, Despot of Serbia
Jerina Brankovic m Gjon Castrioti, Duke of San Pietro in Galatina
Ferrante Scanderbeg-Castrioti, 3rd Duke of San Pietro in Galatina
Erina Scanderbeg-Castrioti m Pietro Sanseverino, 4th Prince of Bisingnano
Vittoria di Sanseverino m Fernando di Capua, 4th Duke of Termoli
Pietro di Capua, 5th Duke of Termoli
Vittoria di Capua m Francesco Pignatelli, 2nd Duke of Bisaccia
Carlo Pignatelli, 3rd Duke of Bisaccia
Nicola Pignatelli, 5th Duke of Bisaccia
Maria Francesca Pignatelli m Leopold Philippe d'Arenberg, 4th Duke of Arenberg
Charles Marie Raymond d'Arenberg, 5th Duke of Arenberg
Princess and Duchess Leopoldine d'Arenberg m Joseph Niklas, Count of Windisch-Graetz
Countess Sophie Luise of Windisch-Graetz m Karl, 5th Prince of Loewenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg
Princess Maria of Loewenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg m Victor, Prince of Isenburg and Buedingen in Birstein
Karl, Prince of Isenburg and Buedingen in Birstein
Franz Joseph, Prince of Isenburg
Franz Ferdinand, Prince of Isenburg
Franz Alexander, Prince of Isenburg
Princess Sophie of Isenburg

Peter

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Reply with quote  #49 

Well, that second one didn’t arouse much interest. Let’s try something else entirely. It is well known amongst people interested in such things that descent from Popes Alexander VI and Paul III is pretty much universal in Catholic royalty. Less well known.is that descent from Popes Julius II and Innocent VIII is quite widespread too. Here’s how:

Pope Julius II and Lucrezia Normanni
Felice della Rovere m Giovan Giordano Orsini, Duke of Bracciano
Girolamo Orsini, Lord of Bracciano
Felicia Orsini m Marcantonio II Colonna, 1st Prince and Duke of Paliano
Fabrizio Colonna
Filippo Colonnna, 4th Prince of Paliano
Anna Colonna m Taddeo Barberini, 1st Prince of Palestrina
Lucrezia Barberini m Francesco I, Duke of Modena
Rinaldo III, Duke of Modena
Francesco III, Duke of Modena
Princess Maria Teresa of Modena m Louis Jean de Bourbon, Duke of Penthièvre
Adélaide de Bourbon m Louis Philippe II, Duke of Orléans
Louis-Philippe I, King of the French

Descendants include Juan Carlos I, King of Spain, Albert II, King of the Belgians, Henri, Grand Duke of Luxembourg, Henri (VII), Comte de Paris, Prince Napoléon (either one, you choose), both Italian claimants, Victor Emmanuel and the Duke of Aosta, Dom Duarte of Portugal and both Brazilian claimants.

Pope Innocent VIII and an unknown woman
Francesco Cibo, Count of Anguilara and Ferentillo
Lorenxo Cibo, Margrave of Massa and Carrara
Alberico I Cibo, 1st Prince of Massa and Carrara
Aldemaro I Cibo, Count of Ferentilla
Carlo I Cibo, 2nd Prince of Massa and Carrara
Alberico II Cibo, 1st Duke of Massa and Carrara
Carlo II Cibo, 2nd Duke of Massa and Carrara
Alderano Cibo, 4th Duke of Massa and Carrara
Maria Teresa Cibo, Duchess of Massa and Carrara m Ercole III, Duke of Modena
Princess Maria Béatrice of Modena m Archduke Ferdinand of Austria
Archduchess Maria Theresia of Austria-Este m Vittorio Emanuele I, King of Sardinia

Descendants include Grand Duke Henri of Luxembourg, Archduke Karl of Austria, Tsar Simeon II of Bulgaria, Duchess Maria Theresia of Württemburg, first wife of the Comte de Paris, so therefore his heirs, and Hereditary Princess Sophie of Liechtenstein, so therefore the next Prince but one.

Descent from Gregory XIII, he of calendar fame, exists in many lines in the Italian nobility, but I haven’t yet found a chain into royalty. Well, there are the children of the elder Prince Guillaume of Luxembourg, who are certainly royal enough, but that hardly counts as a widespread descent such as the above, and sadly they are unlikely to be spreading the line into other royal houses even when old enough to marry, proper royal marriages being so rare these days. I’m glad I wasn’t born 50 years later, I’d have to find another hobby.

royalcello

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Reply with quote  #50 
Don't assume there's no interest just because there weren't any responses.  Sometimes it's just hard to figure out exactly what to type about this sort of thing, but that doesn't mean we don't appreciate your work; I certainly do.   Thanks for sharing.  Too bad most of the world today is too busy with republicanism to give royal genealogy the weight it once had...
Peter

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Reply with quote  #51 
Thanks, that's good to know. I have a theory that Princess Sophie of Isenburg, now Princess of Prussia in a rare case these days of equal marriage, shares these descents. Something to look into another day.
clark

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Reply with quote  #52 
Well just out curiosity, anyway to connect Thomas Palaiologos to the modern greek royal family?
Peter

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Reply with quote  #53 
No. They have imperial Byzantine descent, as does anyone of royal blood as the Byzantines were so long ago and many of the dynasties married their daughters into other European houses seeking support and alliance, but not from him.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #54 
Quote:
Originally Posted by royalcello
Don't assume there's no interest just because there weren't any responses.  Sometimes it's just hard to figure out exactly what to type about this sort of thing, but that doesn't mean we don't appreciate your work; I certainly do.   Thanks for sharing.  Too bad most of the world today is too busy with republicanism to give royal genealogy the weight it once had...


This! Peter, I seldom comment on these posts, but rest assured I read them all carefully, in increasing awe at your knowledge. I used to think I knew a lot of royal genealogy! Hah! I am but a student sitting at the feet of the master!

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clark

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Reply with quote  #55 
Ok. I figured as much but I was just curious. I figured it would be slightly more significant if they were descended from one of the last palaiologoi since , as you said , most anyone can probably claim earlier imperial descent.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #56 
The descent is mainly found in Catholic houses, which rarely marry 'out', Princess Sophie being an exception. I didn't actually have to think about your question, as I am familiar enough with both the more recent ancestry of the Greek royal house and the lines whereby this descent has come into royalty to know that there was no cross-over. Always very happy to answer people's questions, though, tough or easy (I can't guarantee answering all the former, of course, but can guarantee trying unless I know straight away that the task is impossible).

Thanks, Jovan, though I am hardly a master! Just an amateur who is keen on his weird hobby. I do love what I learn from it, though, and the tracing of links from country to country and century to century. If at least a few other people appreciate seeing what I find, then that is nice to know and increases the pleasure of it. Oh, nearly forgot what I came to say, which is that I checked and Princess Sophie is not descended from the Popes I traced from above, she'll have to be content with Genghis Khan and Thomas Palaiologos.
Venetian_Patritian

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Reply with quote  #57 

Hello everyone, I’m a “new entry” on this forum but there are months since I starded reading your posts (with great interest).  In particular, I’m intrigued by genealogical research that  spans over many centuries, different  regions and dynasties. The last thing that push me to register is the “discovery” of a possibile alternative “kinship route” between the Bagratids-Bagrationi of Georgia and the Western European royal houses.

Recently I read the Wikipedia entry on the “Descent from Antiquity” where is postulated a possible descent line from King Ashot II Bagratuni (member of the progenitor Armenian dynasty of the present Georgian one, as today is usually recognized, see the studies of Cyril Toumanoff for example) and Irene Angelina, wife of Philip of Swabia and ancestor virtually to all modern European royal houses (for example she is the grand mother of Alfonso X of Castile).
Here’s how:

King (Shahanshah) Ashot II Yerkat (“the Iron one”) of Armenia and Georgia (914–928) married Maria of Kachum;

Hripsime Bagratuni, married Comita Nikola of Bulgaria (forefather of the Cometopuli dynasty);

Aron of Bulgaria, brother of Emperor Samuil of Bulgaria, married to an unkwon Bulgarian noblewoman (note, this is the most problematic link in the whole descent route, even in the Wikipedia page is cited another possible genealogy of Aron… if Peter could help…);

Ivan Vladislav, last Emperor of the First Bulgarian Empire (conquered by the Byzantine emperor Basil II), married to Maria;

Trayan of Bulgaria, married to an unnamed Byzantine noblewoman;

Maria of Bulgaria, married to Andronikos Doukas;

Irene Doukaina, married to the Byzantine Emperor Alexios I Komnenos;

Theodora Komnene, married to Konstantinos Angelos;

Andronikos Dukas Angelos (died after 1185), married Euphrosyne Kastamonitissa;

Isaac II Angelos, Byzantine emperor, married to a certain Herina, Byzantine noblewoman possibly of the Tornikes family;

Irene Angelina, married to Philip of Swabia, by whom she had:

  • and two sons (called Reinald and Frederick) who died in infancy.

and through their issues to all modern European royal houses…


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Peter

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Reply with quote  #58 
Welcome to the forum. The descent is an interesting and plausible one, potentially giving an unbroken chain of descent to well before the Christian era, but like all such is unverifiable at key points, Aron by no means being the only one. It is given prominence because it is the nearest approach to a fully documented chain, but still cannot be said to be more than plausible. I wouldn't be able to help with the Aron question, I am not a historian, let alone one specialising in medieval Bulgaria, and have only the same sources available to you.

I refreshed my memory of the Wikipedia article, and was very interested by the second paragraph under 'Other postulated routes'. This seems at least as plausible as the line through the Bagratids to the Arsacids, and would give a chain of descent to Western Roman Emperors, and Eastern Emperors from before the fall of the West. I can assure Wikipedia that all the modern European houses are descended from Ramiro II of Leon, not 'most if not all', but it would be pointless to edit the article as some moron would only change it back again, demanding a published source for the blindingly obvious.
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Reply with quote  #59 
Following the papal descents I traced above, I have found another one present in a number of royal lines. This is from Clement VII, the Pope who provoked the English Reformation, so is particularly interesting. The Pope, himself the illegitimate son of the murdered Giuliano de Medici, brother of Lorenzo the Magnificent, made his own natural son Alessandro (by, it is believed, a maidservant of negro descent) Duke of Florence; Alessandro was later assassinated in turn by a rival family member, but carried on the family tradition by leaving illegitimate children, from whom the descent is traced. I'll show it for my all-time genealogical favourite, Princess Alicia of Parma:

Infante Alfonso of Spain, Duke of Calabria, m Princess Alicia of Parma
Elias I, Duke of Parma m Archduchess Maria Anna of Austria
Archduke Friedrich of Austria, Duke of Teschen, m Princess Isabelle of Croy
Rudolf, 11th Duke of Croy m Princess Natalie of Ligne
Eugene, 8th Prince of Ligne m Melanie de Conflans
Louis de Conflans, Marquis d'Armentieres m Princess Amelie of Croy d'Havre
Joseph Anne de Croy, 7th Duke d'Havre et de Croy
Louis Ferdinand de Croy, 6th Duke d'Havre et de Croy
Jean Baptiste de Croy, 5th Duke d'Havre et de Croy m Princess Marie Anne Lante Montrefeltro della Rovere
Antonio Lante Montrefeltro della Rovere, 2nd Duke of Bomarzo and 1st Prince of Belmonte
Ippolito Lante Montrefeltro della Rovere, 1st Duke of Bomarzo m Maria Cristina d'Altemps
Gianpietro d'Altemps, 3rd Duke of Gallese m Angelica de Medici
Cosimo de Medici
Giulio de Medici
Alessandro de Medici, Duke of Florence
Pope Clement VII

There are further interesting Papal affiliations through this line. Perhaps I'll trace these at another time, and also list some of the other royal descendants of Clement VII, but that'll do for now.

Note 21/1/12: unfortunately for me, while Eugene, 8th Prince of Ligne certainly did marry Melanie de Conflans and have children by her, those did not include Princess Nathalie of Ligne, who was the daughter of his second wife Nathalie de Trazegnies. As far as I can ascertain Princess Alicia therefore does not in fact have this descent, and it does not seem present generally in royal lines, though very widespread in noble ones. I intend to look into it further before posting separately.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #60 
These illegitimate children were all acknowledged, right?

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