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Peter

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Reply with quote  #16 
Right. I have succeeded in tracing a descent from the Seljuk Sultans of Rum to present-day royalty through the Bagration line. Not however to the junior line of Karageorgeviches (as yet, though I am all but certain such a line exists), but to Grand Duchess Maria. Brace yourselves, this is going to be a long one. I will omit patronymics and consorts, except where relevant, i.e. the line goes through them. The chain goes backwards from the present day, and a consort when last-mentioned in a line is the daughter (in one case, son) of the next-mentioned.

Grand Duchess Maria
Grand Duke Vladimir m Princes Leonida Bagration-Moukhransky
Prince George Bagration-Moukhransky
Prince Alexander Bagration-Moukhransky
Prince Irakli Bagration-Moukhransky
Prince Constantine Bagration-Moukhransky
Prince Ivan of Moukhrani m Princess Thamar of Georgia
Irakli II, King of Georgia
Teimuraz II, King of Kakheti, later of Kartli
Irakli I, King of Kakheti
David, Prince of Moukhrani
Teimuraz I, King of Kakheti m Princess Korashan of Kartli
George X, King of Kartli
Simon I, King of Kartli m Princess Nestan-Darejan of Kakheti
Levan I, King of Kakheti
George II, King of Kakheti
Alexander I, King of Kakheti
George VIII, King of Georgia
Alexander I, King of Georgia m Princess Thamar of Imereti
Alexander I, King of Imereti
Bagrat I, King of Imereti
Mikeli II, King of Imereti
David VI, King of Imereti
Rusudan, Queen of Georgia m Muhammad Mughis ud-din Turkan Shah
Abdu'l Harij Muhammad Muhi ud-din Tughrul Shah, Amir of Erzurum
Kilij Arslan II, Sultan of Rum

I'll continue to trace the Seljuk line in another post, perhaps first adding some links to this one, but that'll do for now.

ETA links now put in. I've ignored ones which just basically say "he lived and reigned", so they should all be quite interesting. There will be disagreement over spellings of names, which since they are all transliterations or translations is to be expected, and over dynastic numerals, also to be expected with the confusing array of Georgian kingdoms and sub-kingdoms.

Peter

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Reply with quote  #17 
Kilij Arslan II, Sultan of Rum as above
Mesud I, Sultan of Rum
Kilij Arslan I, Sultan of Rum
Suleyman I, Sultan of Rum
Kutalmish
Arslan Yagbu
Arslan?
Seljuk

It will be noted that the great and terrible Alp Arslan, victor of Manzikert, is not in the line. He was not in fact a Sultan of Rum, but was the Great Seljuk Sultan, an office for which his cousin Kutalmish (above) contended unsuccessfully with him. Kutalmish's son Suleyman I was the first Sultan of Rum, in theory subordinate to the Great Seljuk.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #18 
Looking at the way the line dodged about between Kartli and Kakheti, I wondered whether it really needed to. No, is the answer.

Teimuraz I, King of Kakheti as above.
David I, King of Kakheti
Alexander II, King of Kakheti
Levan I, King of Kakheti as above.

Not sure why I went on the sidetrack I did, but both lines are valid, this one is just more direct. I think I had like six tabs open at one point, looking at different relevant pages, plus Burke's at my side, so I'm not surprised if I got a little confused.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #19 
Nothing to do with the preceding, which I have looked at no further, but something I came across which may interest Theodore. It is a genealogy of the Hauke family, a name he will recognise but others perhaps won't. Countess Julie Hauke (one also sees her as Julia, and as von Hauke; I don't think the latter is correct) made a morganatic marriage to Prince Alexander of Hesse and by Rhine and was progenitrix of the Battenbergs/Mountbattens, and so an ancestress inter alia of the Duke of Edinburgh and the present King of Spain.

I had not previously seen any ancestry beyond Grafin Julie's parents Count Moritz Hauke and Sophie Lafontaine, so was interested to come across this. It does not go back very far, naturally, but is not without interest. Despite the name Sophie Lafontaine was also German; here are some more details of her family. Her mother's name Kornely does not mean a lot to me, even in indicating what country it is likely to originate from. It could be German but also seems vaguely Hungarian. Oh well, it's still more than I knew before.

PS There is also a Wikipedia page on the Hauke family, originally Hauck, with much the same information as the genealogy but more fleshed-out.

PPS Hungarian, it would seem. According to this her tombstone states she was.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #20 
I hope you're compiling a huge book of these 'tidbits'...

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #21 
I shouldn't think so, Baron. A few people would enjoy it, but the potential readership is not vast. I hope people clicked on some of the links to Georgian Kings, some of those stories are really interesting. Actually, I found them all interesting. For tragic vicissitudes, which many of these monarchs had, I would suggest Teimuraz I of Kakheti above all. It is a terrible story, but there is a nobility to how he endured it.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #22 
With on-demand printing the book wouldn't need a large audience to be successful (in terms of longevity or profits).

I'd certainly enjoy it.


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Peter

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Reply with quote  #23 
For some reason I was looking the other day at the Douglas (Swedish and, it turns out, German) ancestry through their mother Countess Elisabeth Douglas-Stjernorp of the daughters of Max, Duke in Bavaria. He of course is the heir to his brother Franz, Duke of Bavaria, as head of the Royal House and also as Jacobite heir. Which in concrete terms means rather less than the Bavarian claim, but in terms of worldwide attention rather more. Whether the Jacobite heirs will it or no, and they have made it explicit that they don't, some people will always regard them as rightful sovereigns of these islands, making them newsworthy.

I of course do not entertain any other claim than that of Elizabeth II. But the Jacobite heir is in fact the heir of line of both William the Conqueror and Robert the Bruce, making him or her of genuine genealogical interest. As Duke Max has no sons, and Duke Franz no children, the Bavarian claim will travel according to Salic law to another Wittelsbach branch. The Jacobite claim however will go to Max's eldest daughter Sophie, who to make things even more interesting is by marriage Hereditary Princess of Liechtenstein. So in due course the representation will be held in a current ruling house; the first time that has been the case since 1918.

So while I don't remember why I started looking into the Douglases, once I started I got keen. And there was a surprising amount of interest there. Royal blood, for a start; as I already knew, the natural daughter (and only child) of Grand Duke Ludwig I of Baden married a Count Douglas and has present-day descendants. I'd never looked at whether Duke Max's children and grandchildren are among them, though, which they are.

For another start, a more recent ancestor was Professor Otto Haas-Heye, a noted German fashion designer and professor of arts. Of more note, his daughter Libertas was a heroine of German resistance to the Nazis, such as there was of it, and brutally executed for her activities. Which amounted to espionage and betrayal, as she transmitted German military secrets to the Soviets. In all the circumstances, I approve of her treason and her iconic status in Germany, and am glad to have learned of her.

Slight horn-toot, and an expression of lingering resentment over a certain long-ago remark, the Wikipedia ancestry of Hereditary Princess Sophie did not have the names of Otto Haas-Heye's parents, who as her great-great grandparents should have figured in the top line. However, there were just blanks where they should be. As Professor Haas-Heye was quite distinguished and his daughter (a great-aunt of Princess Sophie) famous, I could not believe that his parents were unknown.

It was in fact a hard slog to find them. I found lots of other genealogies with the same blanks before I found one with them filled in. Which actually went back several more generations, with an intriguing hint of Jewish blood. Then, as is the way of these things, I promptly found two more with the missing names, so could feel confident in completing the Wikipedia entry. Checking today that no busybody had undone my work, it occurred to me that maybe a few people here might be interested in the facts I'd trawled up.

Which further included a descent from Philip, Prince of Eulenburg and Hertefeld, whose daughter Countess Viktoria of Eulenburg and Hertefeld married Otto Haas-Heye and was Hereditary Princess Sophie's great-grandmother. Apart from belonging to ancient Prussian nobility and being married to an heiress of Swedish nobility, Prince Philip was a very close and influential friend of Wilhelm II, and the epicentre of the Harden-Eulenberg homosexual scandal which rocked Imperial Germany. It would appear that despite fathering eight children his actual inclinations lay elsewhere, and the disclosure of this about him and other famous and influential names in the Emperor's inner circle caused tremendous convulsions. It's not exactly a creditable line of descent, I suppose, but to me undeniably an interesting one, to be descended from someone who gained such notoriety.

That's it, except that for anyone who wonders how Swedish nobility comes to have such an obviously Scottish name as Douglas, the explanation is a 17th-century Scottish soldier of fortune, Robert Douglas, who took service with the Swedish forces and rose to great eminence, becoming Field Marshal and Count and establishing one of the premier Swedish noble lines. Douglas of course is one of the great names in the Scottish aristocracy, but I have not been able to ascertain whether Robert Douglas was actually a member of some branch of the noble house, or just someone who happened to have the same surname. His family appear to have been landed and quite distinguished in the Scotland of their day, so the former is certainly possible. But so is the latter. I haven't really tried hard to find out, perhaps one day.

One further scrap of information, Prince Richard zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, husband of Princess Benedikte of Denmark, sister of the present Queen of Denmark and of Queen Anne-Marie of the Hellenes, is a descendant of the Counts Douglas. His maternal great-grandfather Count Ludvig Douglas was a great-great-grandfather of Princess Sophie. An unexpected marital connection between the Bavarian and Liechtenstein lines and those of Denmark and Greece.

And that really is it.

BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #24 
With "His family appear to have been landed and quite distinguished in the Scotland of their day, so the former is certainly possible. But so is the latter. I haven't really tried hard to find out, perhaps one day.His family appear to have been landed and quite distinguished in the Scotland of their day, so the former is certainly possible. But so is the latter. I haven't really tried hard to find out, perhaps one day." in the penultimate paragraph (not counting three words), I certainly hope that this really isn't 'it'.

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #25 
No chance, Baron. I only meant for that post. While writing, thank you for Feline Sedentation, which gave me quite a grin this morning.

PS I did only say that once, didn't I? Yes I did. That's a relief.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #26 
Glad you liked it.
I like being useful.


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Peter

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Reply with quote  #27 
This was actually prompted by the mentions of St Thomas Aquinas in an off-topic serious thread, but wouldn't have been appropriate to post there. I'd long been aware that a relationship existed between Aquinas and just about all European royalty, but never bothered to trace it. I've just made a little project of it, here goes;

Edward IV of England m Elizabeth Woodville
Richard Woodville, Earl Rivers m Jacquetta of Luxembourg-St Pol
Peter, Count of St Pol m Marguerite del Balzo
Frencesco del Balzo, Duke of Andria m Sveva Orsini
Count Nicholas Orsini m Jeanne de Sabran
Count Guillaume de Sabran m Francesca di Celano
Count Tomasso di Celano
Count Rogerio di Celano m Maria di Aquino
Adenalfo d'Aquino, who was the brother of St Thomas Aquinas

I would think you could trace the line from Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville to all European royalty and many nobility and commoners. So there it is, I thought it was vaguely interesting.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #28 
Thanks again.

The down side is, like with most Latin/Western priests, is that the descent isn't direct.

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norenxaq

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Kilij Arslan II, Sultan of Rum as above
Mesud I, Sultan of Rum
Kilij Arslan I, Sultan of Rum
Suleyman I, Sultan of Rum
Kutalmish
Arslan Yagbu
Arslan?
Seljuk

It will be noted that the great and terrible Alp Arslan, victor of Manzikert, is not in the line. He was not in fact a Sultan of Rum, but was the Great Seljuk Sultan, an office for which his cousin Kutalmish (above) contended unsuccessfully with him. Kutalmish's son Suleyman I was the first Sultan of Rum, in theory subordinate to the Great Seljuk.

Hello:

some stories suggest that Seljuk was a descendant of Afrasiab (I believe the same character as in the Shahnameh). any idea what that lineage was?
Peter

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Reply with quote  #30 
Short answer, no. Longer answer, while Seljuk was unquestionably a historical figure we don't know a fantastic amount about him. Afrasiab (of whom I had not previously heard, Persian myths not being my strong suit) is unlikely to have been a historical figure, so anything we may think we know about him is moot. Of course, his probable lack of existence doesn't mean there can't be a genealogy from him. Almost every culture has traced its earlier rulers from that culture's definitely non-existent gods and probably non-existent heroes. But if there is a genealogy tracing Seljuk from Afrasiab, I didn't come across it in a brief scan.

What I did gather, which I expect you know already, was that Afrasiab was the king of the Turanians, enemies of Persia who are identified with the nomads occupying the regions later occupied by Turks. The identification of Turks with Turanians was natural therefore, and the Turks appear to have taken a perverse pride in seeing themselves as the "historical" archenemies of settled civilisation. Hence no doubt the invention of a genealogy tracing Seljuk from Afrasiab, if anyone ever actually went to the trouble as opposed to simply making the assertion. It would have about as much authenticity as other clearly invented genealogies, but would not necessarily lack interest. Couldn't easily find it for you, though, sorry.
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