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DavidV

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http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/kingdom-of-serbia-association-wants-monarchy-reinstituted-05-23-2017

120,000 signatures isn't bad going at all. Serbia, Montenegro, Albania, Georgia, Romania, Bulgaria - just bring it on in that regard.
Domhangairt

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Reply with quote  #2 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/kingdom-of-serbia-association-wants-monarchy-reinstituted-05-23-2017

120,000 signatures isn't bad going at all. Serbia, Montenegro, Albania, Georgia, Romania, Bulgaria - just bring it on in that regard.


Regular opinion polls show the majority of Serbs support the idea of a restoration, but the politicians, many of them former communists, don't want them in office. Same goes for Albanian, Romanian politicians. 
American_NeoLoyalist

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I wish all of these nations the best, and a restored monarchy. Sadly, though, a monarchy is easily removed, but not easily restored. Tradition is an important element of a successful monarchy, and once people try to leave tradition behind them, in favor of what they like to think of as "progress", restoring it can be difficult. However, if the number of monarchists rise, perhaps a restoration of the monarchies in these countries is a possibility. At least the monarchists have a stable base in these countries, which is more than can be said for some nations. 
DavidV

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Well monarchism is visible and viable in countries like Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, Romania and Albania because the dynasties have not been far removed in comparison to others and the bond between them and loyal supporters is strong.
American_NeoLoyalist

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Well, That is a good thing. I hope to see the rise of monarchy in these countries, and the number of monarchists grow.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #6 
Боже спаси краља Александар II!
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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Elizabelo_II

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jovan66102
Боже спаси краља Александар II!


Yes, I totally understand that ; P
Peter

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Something Crown Prince Alexander II, I would say. The something is not going to be 'down with' and will be an expression of approbation or encouragement, but I don't know specifically what.
DavidV

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It's "Bože spasi kralja Aleksandar II!" (God Save King Alexander II).
 
Domhangairt

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Speaking of Serbian royals,does anyone have any information on the Obrenovic family?? This was the royal house of Serbia until 1903. In that year,agents/supporters ofthe reigning Karadjorgevic dynasty stormed the royal palace,killed the captain of the royal guard ,then shot and stabbed King Alexandar Obrenovic and Queen Draga multiple times,then through their naked bodies out of the window.Not long afterwards, Petar Karadjorjevic was proclaimed and crowned King of Serbia. It was the Karadjorgevics who started to make claims to territories outside the rump Kingdom of Serbia,a policy which later led to World War 1. The Obrenovics were happy with the territories they got from the Treaty of Berlin in 1878. However it was "Black George/Karadjorj"who first led the liberation struggle of Serbia from the Ottomans. I was wondering what has happened to the Obrenovics-if indeed there are any left. King Alexandar had no children from his older wife.
Peter

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There aren't any left, King Alexander being the last of them, and there is no known descent surviving from any of the Serbian rulers of the line. The Montenegrin royal house do however descend from an ancestor of the family, so kinship at least does remain. This blood came in after Nikola I so is not shared by the present Serbian, Bulgarian and senior-line Italian claimants, all of whom are his descendants through daughters.
Domhangairt

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
There aren't any left, King Alexander being the last of them, and there is no known descent surviving from any of the Serbian rulers of the line. The Montenegrin royal house do however descend from an ancestor of the family, so kinship at least does remain. This blood came in after Nikola I so is not shared by the present Serbian, Bulgarian and senior-line Italian claimants, all of whom are his descendants through daughters.


Thanks for this. I read that King Alexandar Obrenovic outraged many Serbians by naming his older wife's brother as his heir.The marriage was extremely unpopular- even with his own father who resigned from command of the Serbian armed forces and went to live in Vienna where he died. The Russians might also have had a hand in the murders,they wanted to push Serbia into the Russian sphere of influence,and away from any pro-Austrian allegiances. You can't help wondering whether WW1 might have been averted if the Obrenovic's had retained the Serbian Throne?
Peter

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I wrote my previous post with bedtime a little overdue so it was all hasty and from memory, though I believed it would be correct. Which it nearly was but not quite, as research this morning showed. The part that was right was regarding the present Montenegrin claimant Crown Prince Nikola (II), who is the second cousin twice removed of Alexander, last Obrenović King of Serbia and last Obrenović, as can be seen here. Well, that's what the Genealogics database shows you, but it seems King Alexander had an illegitimate half-brother George, who is not shown and who survived until 1925 so himself will have been the last Obrenović, albeit not a recognised member of the dynasty. And except that apparently male-line descent from him has been asserted, though it seems with little if any evidence provided for the claim.

The Obrenović are among the more confusing dynasties of the last few centuries. The common ancestor shown in the link above for Crown Prince Nikola and the last Obrenović monarch is Jevrem Obrenović, younger brother of Miloš Obrenović, first ruler of the line. The two siblings had actually started out in life with the patronym Teodorović, but changed to Obrenović in order to link themselves to their maternal half-brother Milan Obrenović, a famed leader in the Serbian cause. The line of Miloš failed, so his great-nephew Milan, grandson of Jevrem, became Prince and later first modern-day King of Serbia, fathering the legitimate Alexander who succeeded as King but was himself childless and the illegitimate George as above.

A more complete Obrenović genealogy here shows the line's complete failure except for cognatic descent and apart from the putative descendants of George Obrenović. Two daughters of Miloš Obrenović appear in it as surviving to adulthood and marriage; this second genealogy does not show issue but then it would not, as it is a listing of agnates. However the legacy section of the Wikipedia article for Jevrem's daughter Princess Anka Obrenović asserts that there is no known descent from the House except through her, she being the grandmother of Natalia Constantinović, herself paternal grandmother of Crown Prince Nikola of Montenegro.

So I think on the whole my hasty assertions last night were correct, apart from George Obrenović of whom I was ignorant and his possible continuing line of which I am sceptical. Finally, and just to be complete, here are the relationships between Crown Prince Nikola and the present Serbian, senior-line Italian and Bulgarian claimants, showing that they lack the Obrenović descent that came through Crown Prince Nikola's aforementioned paternal grandmother.
Elizabelo_II

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
I wrote my previous post with bedtime a little overdue so it was all hasty and from memory, though I believed it would be correct. Which it nearly was but not quite, as research this morning showed. The part that was right was regarding the present Montenegrin claimant Crown Prince Nikola (II), who is the second cousin twice removed of Alexander, last Obrenović King of Serbia and last Obrenović, as can be seen here. Well, that's what the Genealogics database shows you, but it seems King Alexander had an illegitimate half-brother George, who is not shown and who survived until 1925 so himself will have been the last Obrenović, albeit not a recognised member of the dynasty. And except that apparently male-line descent from him has been asserted, though it seems with little if any evidence provided for the claim.

The Obrenović are among the more confusing dynasties of the last few centuries. The common ancestor shown in the link above for Crown Prince Nikola and the last Obrenović monarch is Jevrem Obrenović, younger brother of Miloš Obrenović, first ruler of the line. The two siblings had actually started out in life with the patronym Teodorović, but changed to Obrenović in order to link themselves to their maternal half-brother Milan Obrenović, a famed leader in the Serbian cause. The line of Miloš failed, so his great-nephew Milan, grandson of Jevrem, became Prince and later first modern-day King of Serbia, fathering the legitimate Alexander who succeeded as King but was himself childless and the illegitimate George as above.

A more complete Obrenović genealogy here shows the line's complete failure except for cognatic descent and apart from the putative descendants of George Obrenović. Two daughters of Miloš Obrenović appear in it as surviving to adulthood and marriage; this second genealogy does not show issue but then it would not, as it is a listing of agnates. However the legacy section of the Wikipedia article for Jevrem's daughter Princess Anka Obrenović asserts that there is no known descent from the House except through her, she being the grandmother of Natalia Constantinović, herself paternal grandmother of Crown Prince Nikola of Montenegro.

So I think on the whole my hasty assertions last night were correct, apart from George Obrenović of whom I was ignorant and his possible continuing line of which I am sceptical. Finally, and just to be complete, here are the relationships between Crown Prince Nikola and the present Serbian, senior-line Italian and Bulgarian claimants, showing that they lack the Obrenović descent that came through Crown Prince Nikola's aforementioned paternal grandmother.


Do you mean the bit on wikipedia that states 

"According to a 2003 article by the Serbian media company Novosti AD, George had a son called Stefan who served as a cavalry captain in the French Army. Stefan in turn had a son named Panta (Panka) Obrenović (also known as Mark Eme) who served as chairman of the "Fund Obrenović" until his death in Paris in early 2002." ?

It links to this and it seems to talk about the same people

http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/naslovna/aktuelno.69.html:143406-Nasle273e-umesto-krune
Peter

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Reply with quote  #15 
I did. It wasn't incidentally really necessary to quote my whole lengthy post, just a relevant bit would have done. The article is as usual not too easy to follow in machine translation, but seems to be mainly talking about male-line descendants of an elder half-brother of Miloš Obrenović I, first Serbian ruler of the line. The reference to descendants of George Obrenović is just an aside, with no evidence provided for them. The Obrenović family the article mainly concerns itself with are not dynasts as they are agnatically of a different line, springing from the first husband of the mother of Miloš Obrenović I, while he and his brother Jevrem were sons of her second husband.
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