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Queenslander

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Reply with quote  #46 
If I may ask a query of you Peter, I don't know if this is the place here or not, but could you enlighten us as to which and when was the last Royal House of Europe to make a marital connection to the other Royal Houses (The last link in the chain as it were) you have so studiously surveyed so far?
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Peter

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Reply with quote  #47 
Sure it's the place, and I am very happy to answer questions like this. I don't have time to look into this particular question right now, though, but will give you a full answer later.
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Reply with quote  #48 

OK, I have three answers. I have looked at equal marriages, which would include marriage to members of mediatised houses, rather than specifically marriage between members of royal houses, though I do have an answer, or rather two answers, on that one as well. The most recent equal marriage of a member of a European royal house was that of Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia, to Princess Sophie of Isenburg on 25th August 2011. The most recent marriage between two members of European royal houses was that between Prince Aimone of Savoy and Princess Olga of Greece on 16th September 2008. Lest anyone should be sniffy about Princess Olga's non-royal mother, the  one before that was between Princess Marie of Orléans and Prince Gundakar of Liechtenstein on 22nd July 1989.

I will be posting a more detailed answer, complete with charts, in the original Blood Royal thread, which I think it would be a good addition to. What I have done is two charts, one showing most recent equal marriages by sovereigns, heads of house or heirs to either for each house, and another simply showing the most recent equal marriage by any member of a particular royal house. I had to do this kind of work because, after all, unless I look at all houses what good is the answer? I thought I might as well get an addition to the thread out of it, which some people might enjoy looking at.

Speaking of covering all houses, I have yet to do the German sub-monarchies and the pre-unification monarchies of Italy, and will be temporarily locking that thread so as to ensure that all the material is kept in uninterrupted sequence. It’s unlikely that anyone would reply, but you never know. Obviously until that work is done the answer above is provisional. It is also provisional in that I could have missed a more recent equal marriage, and if anyone thinks I have please say so here. 

PS I didn’t forget Monaco in the charts, now posted, I intentionally omitted it, meaning just to mention Princess Caroline’s most recent marriage in the text prefacing them. That I did forget to do, now addressed, and so didn’t think about it in the reply above. Princess Caroline married Prince Ernst August of Hanover on 23rd January 1999, so should have appeared rather than Princess Marie of Orléans as my third option.

DC

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Reply with quote  #49 
Thanks for the charts they are interesting to see. Although the Ligne's married to Brazil are only Section III of the Almanach de Gotha (non sovereign European princely and ducal families) and the Limburg-Stirum's married to Austria-Hungary didn't make it into the Gotha at all appearing in the Gothaisches Genealogisches Taschenbuch der Graflichen Hauser series of Perthes books. If we stretch equality we could include the marriage of Prince Charles Phillipe of Orleans to the Duchess of Cadaval as they are really just as equal as the Ligne's and probably more so than the Limburg's as the third section of the Gotha lists ducal families, although I'm not sure if they ever listed the Portuguese ones like they did British, French and some others.
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Peter

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Reply with quote  #50 
These things are always arguable at the outer edges. I will carefully consider your points, and make amendments if they seem necessary; what I did today was something of a rush job, and I always expected it would need refinement. Thanks very much for your input, and I hope there will be more, including if you disagree with whatever final decisions I make. Obviously only I (and Theodore, who wouldn't) can change the charts, but if you record a contrary opinion it will stay on the record.
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Reply with quote  #51 
I have now done my careful consideration. You are completely right, and the second chart has been modified accordingly. My impression that the Lignes had mediatised status was simply mistaken. They are a very ancient and eminent noble house and I think a bride from them would have been found acceptable by most families, but on a strict interpretation of the rules they do not qualify.

The Limburg-Stirums are also ancient, indeed they are one of the most ancient of all surviving royal and noble lines. My impression was that they had missed mediatised status only through being mediatised slightly earlier than in other cases, therefore could reasonably be taken as equal. That was also my mistake. It was not the date of the mediatisation but the fact that the actual mediatised lines are all extinct that was the problem. The remaining line branched off before Imperial Immediacy was achieved, therefore does not qualify either.

Your help will be duly acknowledged on the thread when I wrap up posting these charts, which might be a few days yet as the two remaining to do are both going to be a lot of work. By the way, when I looked at Austria I did not consider the Tuscan branch, since they will be covered under Tuscany. Archduke Martin who has replaced Archduchess Marie Christine in the second chart is actually a brother of Archduke Lorenz of Austria-Este, but was counted to Austria rather than Modena as it appears that only Archduke Lorenz of the children of Archduke Robert bears the Austria-Este designation.
DC

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Reply with quote  #52 
I agree its best to be strict on the guidelines but we have the problem regarding the status of some dynasts as you note in the intro to the German chart. With Mecklenburg-Strelitz the most recent equal marriage was between Duke Carl Gregor, the younger son of Duke Georg, and Princess Maria Margarethe of Hohenzollern in 1965, and Reuss elder Line, Princess Hermine married German Emperor Wilhelm II in 1922. Some low profile recent marriages that have probably gone under the radar are Princess Auguste of Bavaria, elder sister of Princess Alice, and Prince Ferdinand of Lippe-Weissenfeld and (perhaps a slightly ambiguous per the status of some dynasts) Prince Heinrich XXIV Reuss (Younger Line) married Dorothea zu Castell-Castell in 2013. However although her father is the second surviving son her youngest uncle is the heir as his elder brothers married unequally and seem to have lost their rights so I'm not sure if we would on a technicality regard her as equal, I would be inclined to as Friedrich Ernst of Saxe-Meiningen's younger brother seems to be generally accepted as head of that house with Friedrich Ernst and his children non dynastic. But thanks again for the charts its useful to see this data in one place in a table form like this.
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Reply with quote  #53 
Thanks once more. I will look into all these, though I'm sure you're right as you usually are, and amend as necessary. It won't be tonight, though, as after turning out the chart even I have had enough genealogy for one day. The input is very much appreciated.
DC

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Reply with quote  #54 
No problem. I appreciate the work you put into them, I know from running my website on the House of Mecklenburg-Strelitz how time consuming it can be researching, typing up text etc.
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Reply with quote  #55 
All your corrections have now been implemented except the last one, which was more of a suggestion. I may yet make that change too, but want to think about it some more first. If I don't do it then it will be mentioned in the text introducing these charts; when Italy is done I will be deleting the separate introduction to the Germany chart and rewriting the post before the first chart as an introduction to all four, covering inter alia these kinds of doubts. I see your reasoning that I should include the Reuss marriage, on the basis that I included Friedrich Ernst of Saxe-Meiningen, who was officially non-dynastic as you say. However his son Prince Constantin is surely going to be declared dynastic, as the only possible heir left to Prince Konrad, the younger half-brother of Friedrich Ernst as you mention, kind of retrospectively validating his late father in the dynasty. There isn't the same sort of argument in favour of Countess Dorothea. Anyway, like I said I haven't made up my mind yet, and either way the marriage will be mentioned. In the meantime I have found my own correction, temporary though it might be, substituting the marriage of Princess Felizitas Reuss in 1974 for that of Princess Feodora in 1967.
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Reply with quote  #56 

And now, we take a brief break from equal marriage for something which, er, equal marriage comes into quite a lot actually. I always intended the 1952 to the present day thread to have new charts added as accessions took place. That’s why I called it 1952 to the present day rather than 1952-2013, and accordingly I have just now posted a chart (with what I fear people will think is a very long narrative prefacing it) for the accession of Felipe VI in Spain.

I will not be altering the Heirs chart to show the new Princess of Asturias, and on reflection neither will I change it when the new Monaco Prince or Princess supersedes Princess Caroline as next in line to the throne. That chart remains valid for the displayed date despite later changes in European successions, and since the new heirs of Spain and Monaco form or will form connections only one degree different to those shown in it there seems little value in creating a new version.

If around to do so I will though produce a new Heirs chart when Alois III succeeds Hans-Adam II in Liechtenstein, since Prince Joseph Wenzel’s nearest relationships with various other heirs are different to his father’s. For example, Hereditary Prince Alois is 6c1r fourteen times through five mutual ancestors (only ten times and four ancestors appear in the link) to Infanta Leonor, the same as to her father plus one generation. She is 5c once only to Prince Joseph Wenzel, through a quite different ancestor. Different not least in her sex, since it is actually an ancestress.

I probably will change the relevant Blood Royal chart upon the Monaco birth, since all I have to do there is change a name, but will decide when the expected happy event occurs. I won’t however be changing the various narratives that refer to Felipe VI as Prince of Asturias and anticipate the effects on relationships of his accession, since the references are accurate for the date of posting. The same applies to references to Princess Caroline as Hereditary Princess and accompanying speculations on the Monégasque succession. Anyway, I hope people will enjoy having the new chart, and as for the long narrative of course no one has to read it. If anyone does, I hope they also find something to enjoy there.

BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #57 

The above is an example of one of the things that is great about this forum.

 

I can't follow all of it (not knowing the people or the reference materials), but I can see true engagement, research, and collaborative presentation of 'neat stuff' that I didn't know.

 

Thanks!


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Peter

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Reply with quote  #58 
I'm glad you're appreciating the unaccustomed liveliness of the threads, Bo. I have had a lively day, checking and implementing DC's corrections, posting the new chart for Felipe VI and related material, producing the Italy chart for the Blood Royal thread and revising the ones for Germany and European dynasts, completely rewriting the introduction to those charts (it will surprise no one that it is now much longer) and posting all that material. Having done that I unlocked the thread and settled back to relax, then realising I had done something stupid. I posted the narrative for the Felipe VI chart in the old final post of the 1952 to the present day thread. That meant that a piece starting off 'The accession today of King Felipe VI of Spain to the throne of his ancestors...' was dated 26th March. Oops. So I had to delete everything, chart, key and all, and post the whole lot again. Sigh. Oh well, it could have been worse, I might not have realised until tomorrow.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #59 

I'm still mighty busy, but the errors thus induced are more private.....

[smile]


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Reply with quote  #60 

Would have been embarrassing if I hadn’t caught it in time. That chart is a bane to post, though, I didn’t appreciate having to do it again. It looks like there’s a new post in the Blood Royal thread, but it isn’t exactly new. I realised that the introductory material would work better if split over two posts, the first discussing the charts themselves and the second the interesting ancestries of some of the spouses.

In order to accomplish that I had to delete and repost all the charts, the second part of the introductory matter occupying the space where the first chart was, that chart going where the second one was, and so on. Happily these charts, in contrast to the Felipe VI one, are really simple to post. However, obviously the final chart had to go into a new post. It’s not actually the case that the thread contains no new matter at all, since I have revised the introductory material quite a lot today, I realised that without intending to I had presented DC’s position a little unfairly and fixed that, then added several more links and some new text to what is now the second part, involving Khans of the Nogai Horde and a Bulgarian saint among other things. Interesting as I felt that was, it lengthened the already long introduction still further, leading to my decision to split it.

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