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Peter

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Reply with quote  #31 

As people can imagine, I was heartily sick of these threads after all the work detailed in the previous few posts. However, a few weeks off have restored my interest and I now want to finish off reporting on the changes made and then move on to something new.

I tackled the cosmetic clean-up mentioned yesterday, with mixed success: it looks like Website Toolbox have been making changes to their HTML editor, and some of the things that worked before now no longer do, while others work better. The upshot was that I was not able to apply the new layout to all the tables of statistics I wanted to, and have had to leave the threads inconsistent in that respect. So be it, maybe I’ll try again some other time.

None of that work involved any change in information, just in presentation. Some changes in information did result from getting all the new red links calculated, and as previously promised I am now going to list these, thread by thread. The reason for doing so is that while in all probability no one ever took note of the information previously present and now corrected someone might have done so, and therefore I am obliged to point out where that information was wrong.

As mentioned before, there were no errors in the various 1952 to the present day charts, and only one in those for 1939, detailed in an earlier post. The list therefore begins with 1914 (1).*

1914 (1)

Chart III: 4c1r LIXHD added to the relationships shown (4c1r FAIIB/FJSC) for Albert I of Belgium and the brothers Haakon VII of Norway and Christian X of Denmark.

1914 (2)

Chart I: 4c KMS added to the 4c GWHD shown for Ernst Ludwig, Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine and Friedrich August II, Grand Duke of Oldenburg.

Chart IIa: 3c PIR added to the 3c FWIIP/KIIMS shown for Friedrich II, Grand Duke of Baden and Ernst II, Duke of Saxe-Altenburg.
In the same chart, for some reason I had Adolf Friedrich VI, Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Ernst August III, Duke of Brunswick as 3c FHC/FSA/G3GB/KIIMS. They were all those things, but also 2c1r FMS, now shown. Particular apologies to DC for this one.

Chart IIb: 4c1r H24RK added to the 4c1r LIXHD shown for Friedrich Franz IV, Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Heinrich XXIV, Prince Reuß Elder Line.
4c FWSB added to the 4c EAISW shown for Friedrich August II, Grand Duke of Oldenburg and Günther Viktor, Prince of Schwarzburg.
6c1r GLE added to the 6c1r JDK/LKNS shown for Adolf Friedrich VI, Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Leopold IV, Prince of Lippe.

Chart IIIb: 6c H24RK/LAZ added to the 6c LCSG/LKNS/WDCR shown for Carl Eduard, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and Leopold IV, Prince of Lippe.

Chart IIIc:  4c2r H24RK replaced 5c1r LKNS for Günther Viktor, Prince of Schwarzburg and Leopold IV, Prince of Lippe.
5c1r H24RK added to the 5c1r LAZ/LKNS shown for Friedrich, Prince of Waldeck and Pyrmont and Leopold IV, Prince of Lippe.

1914 (3)

Chart IIb: 6c RSR added to the 6c AEIO shown for Ferdinand I of Bulgaria and Heinrich XXIV, Prince Reuß Elder Line.

Chart III:  4c1r FLW added to the 4c1r AUSM shown for George V of Great Britain & Ireland and Wilhelm Ernst, Grand Duke of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach.

Chart IV: 4c1r KMS added to the 4c1r FIIW/KIIMS/LMS shown for Nicholas II of Russia and Carl Eduard, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.
3c1r FIIW added to the 3c1r FSA shown for Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and Ernst August III, Duke of Brunswick.
2c1r PIR replaced 2c2r FSA for Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and Ernst II, Duke of Saxe-Altenburg.

1871

Chart I: 5c1r ABA added to the 5c1r JBA shown for Carl XV of Sweden & Norway and Karl I of Württemberg.§

1815

No errors.

1789

No errors as such.  The relationships of Stanisław II of Poland were extensively revised, but those shown previously were treated as examples due to their remoteness.**

1713

Chart II: I inexplicably had Frederik IV of Denmark & Norway shown as 2c GBL/JGB to Friedrich Wilhelm I of Prussia. Nothing wrong with GBL, but JGB should have been and now is GWB, his great-grandson.

1660

No errors.

1558

No errors.

1517

5c1r CCV added to the 5c1r WHH shown for Manoel I of Portugal and François I of France.
The same change was made for Juana I of Spain and François I.
4c2r LIVE added to the 4c2r JIB shown for Zygmunt I of Poland and Henry VIII of England.

1492

6c HVL added to the 6c MIIC shown for Vladislav II of Hungary & Bohemia and Ferrando II of Aragón.
3c1r FVN replaced 3c3r GGL for Vladislav II of Hungary & Bohemia and Hans of Denmark & Norway.
4c1r SIIB added to the 4c1r BVM shown for Catherine of Navarre and James IV of Scotland.

1453

Chart I: 3c1r CCV added to the 3c1r F2S shown for Juan II of Castile and Charles VII of France.

Chart II: 6c1r AIVS added to the 6c1r HIIB/OIIB shown for Afonso V of Portugal and Christian I of Denmark & Norway.
5c1r TFL replaced 6c BIVH for Friedrich III, Holy Roman Emperor and Constantine XI, Eastern Roman Emperor.
5c3r TIS replaced 6c HIIB for Christian I of Denmark & Norway and Constantine XI, Eastern Roman Emperor.

Chart III: 5c HVL added to the 5c MIIC shown for Alfonso V of Aragón and Ladislaus V of Hungary.
3c2r CCV added to the 3c2r F2S shown for Charles VII of France and Afonso V of Portugal.
2c1r SIIS added to the 2c1r GGL shown for Vasily II of Moscow and Kazimierz IV of Poland.
The relationship of James II of Scotland and Friedrich III, Holy Roman Emperor had been either miscalculated or mistyped, it was shown as 5c2r BIVH and should have been 6c2r.
5c2r HIIB added to the 5c2r IVH shown for James II of Scotland and Constantine XI, Eastern Roman Emperor.

La Belle Époque

Chart 2c: 4c1r FWIP added to the 4c1r GIIGN shown for Marie Henriette, Queen of the Belgian and Alexandra Feodorovna, Empress of All the Russias.
5c FWIP added to the 5c GIIGB shown for Maria Cristina, Queen Regent of Spain and Alexandra Feodorovna, Empress of All the Russias.††

That’s it, then. Seems like a lot, but I don’t think it really is considering the enormous volume of relationships and the fact that I had no support of any kind in either compiling or checking the charts. If people disagree they are free to excoriate me, though I would suggest that they consider first whether they could actually have done better. I’m sure there are people out there who could have, but the point is they didn’t do the work, I did. If I failed the test, well, at least I attempted it and did my best.



* Changes to the relationships of the Princes of Monaco and Liechtenstein in the 1914 (1) and (3) threads were not corrections but substitutions of actual nearest for example relationships, and will be detailed at another time.

 This one took some fancy footwork to actually get displayed in the chart; its being overlooked originally was I think a great deal more excusable than the other mistake with Adolf Friedrich VI’s connections listed earlier.

 I felt especially bad about this error; the relationship previously shown did at least exist, but there is no way I should not have spotted the nearer one.

§ ABA and JBA were father and son, and relationships through both in the same degree are not uncommon, though as they tend to be remote it was always easy for me to miss one or the other.

**Well, that’s what I said, which while it would have been a valid enough reason was not entirely frank of me. It wasn’t just the remoteness, but also a lack of confidence. I always had a sneaking feeling that if I looked harder I would find nearer connections than those shown through James IV of Scotland, and indeed this turned out to be the case.

John Stewart, 12th Earl of Lennox, was like James IV a great-grandfather of James I and VI, from whom the majority of the 1789 sovereigns descended. However, the Earl was also the great-grandfather of Lady Henrietta Stuart, wife of George Gordon, 1st Marquess of Huntly. Besides being the villain of the justly famous Scottish ballad The Bonnie Earl O’ Moray (sung in the link by a late and bitterly-missed friend of mine), the latter was twice the great-great­-grandson of James IV, and it was he through whom the connections previously shown had been traced. Connections through Lord Lennox were therefore one degree nearer, and it is these that are now shown.

While I’m in confession mode, the connection shown originally for Louis XVI and Stanisław II through their respective Polish noble ancestries was never found by me, it was one of a very few in the charts as originally posted that the old version of the Genealogics calculator found for me. It was also a perfect example of why I never trusted that old calculator to do my work, as the new one found not one but two relationships that were closer.

†† FWIP and GIIGB were first cousins, and brothers-in-law too. Other things they had in common were a choleric temper, though ‘choleric’ is actually a rather mild euphemism for the demented rages FWIP was subject to, and a passionate loathing of their eldest sons. GIIGB was on the whole a much nicer man, not difficult as FWIP was beyond abominable, and certainly treated his wife far better. But, though able enough, he had none of FWIP’s genius for administration, and it was better for both their realms that the irascible but generally good-hearted GIIGB was the constitutional and the ogre FWIP the absolute monarch. None of which excuses me overlooking these two relationships through the latter.

KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #32 
Peter, how widespread is the descent from Birute in present-day European royalty? Are there any other deified people in the family tree of European royalty? Just curious.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #33 

It’s universal in present-day royalty. In the 1558 note on posterities, at the end I have links to trace descent from Barbara Zápolya, sister of the Hungarian king János I Zápolya and first wife of Zygmunt the Old of Poland, all the way to all current sovereigns. And in the 1453 note part three there are links that trace from Birutė to Barbara Zápolya.

Not that I know of. I made special mention of this one mainly because I thought you’d be interested, and was a little disappointed when you never said anything. Evidently you were too busy with college; congratulations by the way on your graduation.

PS Another thing that you might enjoy is if you click on the link to IYL in the key to the 1453 chart part II. Although, as I make clear in the footnote to the key, it is doubtful that IYL was an ancestress of Karl VIII of Sweden, or rather the descent cannot be regarded as properly authenticated, she certainly was of Christian I of Denmark and Norway, and therefore of all current royalty. And, the part that would interest you, she was reputedly a most powerful sorceress.

Peter

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Reply with quote  #34 
I mentioned that I would write separately about the actual as opposed to example relationships of the Princes of Monaco and Liechtenstein in the 1914 (1) and (3) charts. Actually I had already done so for 1914 (1), and then deleted the post along with several others reporting progress on a reconstruction project now complete. I did however keep a copy of the particular post and, feeling lazy, will just reproduce the relevant portion:

Quote:
I have now reposted the 1914 (1) thread yet again, with a complete set of nearest relationships for the Princes of Monaco and Liechtenstein in charts I and  III. In chart I, only two of the example relationships turned out to be the actual nearest (both for Alfonso XIII, 6c2r JEIO to Johann II and 8c1r MHC to Albert I, though two more relationships have been added to the latter), which was no surprise. In chart III, the relationships of Johan II all changed except to George V (6c2r JEIO), though five of the others were still through the same ancestor, JEIO again, just a little nearer than was shown before.

The relationships of Albert I in chart III bear an even closer resemblance to the examples; five of them, to Wilhelm II, Haakon VII, Gustaf V, George V and Christian X, were exactly correct already (though the relationships with the Scandinavian monarchs were always thought to be the nearest), those to Wilhelmina and Vidi I were correct but other relationships have been added, and those to Constantine I and Nicholas II have changed only from 8c1r MHC to 8c. That more of the example relationships for Albert I turned out to be the actual nearest than for Johann II will be because of his comparative paucity of royal ancestry (not that Johan II had a lot), narrowing my field of search.

I had never detailed the changes to these relationships in the 1914 (3) charts, but with a view to eventually doing so copied the relationships as they were before changing them. The best way to show the picture is I think not to narrate it but just to show the original, example relationships along with the actual relationships that now appear, which is what I will do in the next two posts, covering first the Kings and Grand Dukes and then the Dukes and Princes of the German Empire in 1914. There is a certain degree of interest, I think, in how many more of the examples in these charts turned out to be the actual nearest, or if not that through the same ancestor with a degree or so of difference. I have kept the links in for the actual relationships, as in lieu of a key, or going back to the 1914 threads for one, people can just click the links to see who the ancestors were. They really don't take that long to load, even though the relationships are mostly quite remote.

A final point is that as many of these ancestors were too obscure to have a Wikipedia page I mainly used their Genealogics individual pages for links in the keys. This was sometimes because I was desperate, but not always. Many of these pages contain a surprising amount of biographical information if you scroll down, often very interesting. Try FCLW, who appears to have been a thoroughly horrible person, and JFT who appears to have been thoroughly admirable as examples of what I mean. Again, you don't have to go to the keys, just click their name at the top of the relationships link once it has loaded.
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Reply with quote  #35 
King/Grand DukeWilhelm II
Württemberg
F August III
Saxony
Ludwig III
Bavaria
E Ludwig
Hesse-R
F Franz IV
M-Schwerin
F August II
Oldenburg
W Ernst
S-Weimar
Friedrich II
Baden
A Friedrich VI
M-Strelitz
Johann II examples6c2r JEIO6c3r JEIO6c2r JEIO6c2r JEIO6c3r JEIO6c2r JEIO6c3r JEIO6c2r JEIO6c2r JEIO
Johann II actual6c1r JEIO5c2r FCLW
5c2r JFT
5c2r FCLW6c2r JEIO6c2r JEIO6c1r JEIO6c2r JEIO6c2r JEIO5c2r FAOS
Albert I examples8c MHC6c WHRR6c WHRR8c MHC8c1r MHC8c1r MHC8c2r MHC8c MHC8c1r MHC
Albert I actual8c ELF
8c MHC
8c SVIL
6c WHRR6c WHRR8c MHC
8c PSH
8c FISN7c1r PSH8c1r MHC8c JVIN
8c MHC
6c1r CFS
Peter

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Reply with quote  #36 
DukeC Eduard
S-Coburg
Friedrich II
Anhalt
Ernst II
S-Altenburg
E August III
Brunswick
Bernhard III
S-Meiningen
Johann II examples6c2r JEIO6c3r JEIO6c3r JEIO6c2r JEIO6c3r JEIO
Johann II actual6c2r JEIO5c1r FAOS6c2r JEIO6c2r JEIO6c2r JEIO
Albert I examples8c2r MHC8c MHC8c MHC8c2r MHC8c1r MHC
Albert I actual8c MHC
8c PSH
6c CFS8c MHC
8c SVIL
8c MHC8c MHC

PrinceG Viktor
Schwarzburg
Friedrich
Waldeck-P
H XXIV
Reuß Elder
Leopold IV
Lippe
Adolf II
S-Lippe
H XXVII
Reuß Younger
Johann II examples6c2r JEIO6c2r JEIO6c2r JEIO9c2r WIIJ6c4r JEIO6c1r JEIO
Johann II actual6c1r JEIO6c1r JEIO6c1r JEIO7c1r GAIE
7c1r JWF
6c2r JEIO6c1r JEIO
Albert I examples10c PLH8c1r MHC8c1r MHC8c1r MHC8c2r MHC8c MHC
Albert I actual7c1r FISN
7c1r PSH
7c1r PSH7c1r FISN
7c1r MHC
7c1r SVIL
8c JVIN
8c SVIL
7c1r MHC
7c1r SVIL
7c1r FISN
KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter

 

PS Another thing that you might enjoy is if you click on the link to IYL in the key to the 1453 chart part II. Although, as I make clear in the footnote to the key, it is doubtful that IYL was an ancestress of Karl VIII of Sweden, or rather the descent cannot be regarded as properly authenticated, she certainly was of Christian I of Denmark and Norway, and therefore of all current royalty. And, the part that would interest you, she was reputedly a most powerful sorceress.



Thanks for the mention of Ingrid Ylva, Peter. I'm assuming that Christian I of Denmark and Norway was descended from Ingrid Ylva through her son Birger Jarl. B/c I found some very interesting names pop up in the ancestry of Birger Jarl's father, the husband of Ingrid Ylva, whose name I have embarrassingly forgotten. To wit, if indeed Thorgils Sprakalagg was the son of Styrbjorn the Strong, then Christian I would, according to the old legends, be descended from Ragnar Lodbrok, and through him also from Hrothgar of Beowulf fame and ultimately from Denmark's legendary king and namesake Dan Mikillati, who was, get this, the paternal grandson of Rig, the subject of the Eddic poem Rigsthula, which in its very introduction proclaims that Rig is but another name for the god Heimdall! It's just something I find very interesting.

I have another question following on from this, though, Peter. Was Christian I of Denmark and Norway also a descendant of Harald Fairhair, the unifier of Norway? I'll tell you why I wish to know if you can answer in the affirmative.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #38 
As you will see if you click the link between Christian I and Karl VIII in the 1453 chart II, Christian I was indeed descended from Ingrid Ylva via Birger Jarl, at least four times. Magnus Minniskiöld was your forgotten father. Ironically, the 'Minni' element of his sobriquet means 'memory'. Styrbjörn the Strong was also allegedly an ancestor of Harold II of England through his mother, though the truth of this is questionable to the point of unlikelihood. The same can be said of the descent of any Norwegian king after Harald II Greycloak from Harald Fairhair. The general consensus of historians is that the claims made by subsequent kings were fictions invented to buttress their thrones and dynasties. In turn, descent from the kings for whom these probably false claims were first made is questionable at several points. While it would be possible to set out a chain of descent from Harald Fairhair to Christian I, it would be done in the almost certain knowledge that several of the links in the chain were inventions, so doesn't really seem worth doing.

PS Nevertheless I was unable to resist doing it, thrice; see Blood Royal II post #13 for a (much) more detailed answer.
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Reply with quote  #39 
Thanks for the interesting information in the above thread. Count Ferdinand Carolus of Lowenstein (FCLW) indeed seems not to have been a nice person, considering the way he brutally mistreated the elderly Magistrate Kisseberth, who was apparently only doing his job. Count von Lowenstein apparently also challenged his rival, Count von Erbach, to a duel, according to online information elsewhere.

Ferdinand Carolus married seventeen year old Anna Maria von Furstenberg, and in the course of their twenty year marriage, she presented him with children at regular intervals, eventually totalling fourteen. (There appears to be a slight error in Genealogics on the birthdate of one of the children, as it shows two children being born a few months apart in 1662. I imagine the second child was actually born in 1663.). Several of Ferdinand Carolus' younger sons died in battle at an early age. Ferdinand passed away a few months after the birth of his youngest child, perhaps to Anna Maria's relief. She outlived him by many years.

The House of Lowenstein is an agnatic, albeit morganatic, branch of the Wittelsbach Dynasty of the Rhenish Palatinate and Bavaria. I believe that genealogically they are the senior agnatic line of Wittelsbach.The house was founded when Elector Palatine Friedrich I married his court singer Clara Tott. A son of this marriage received the County of Lowenstein. Friedrich's nephew Philipp (only son of Friedrich's elder brother) eventually succeeded him as Elector Palatine.

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Reply with quote  #40 

It was announced yesterday, as I learned from a post here by DavidV, that the Prince and Princess of Monaco are expecting their first child. Congratulations to Their Serene Highnesses, and I hope for an easy pregnancy and the safe delivery of a healthy child. The baby will be the heir apparent or heiress presumptive to Monaco's throne, in either case displacing Princess Caroline, the present heiress presumptive. Monaco still operates male-preference primogeniture, but to be honest I was surprised as well as pleased by the announcement, in view of both the Princess's age and the rumoured marital difficulties, and I would think the chances are that the child if a girl will not be overtaken in the succession by a younger brother.

Boy or girl, if an only child a rather dicey situation could be created in the next reign. According to Monégasque law only legitimate descendants of the reigning prince or princess, his or her siblings and their legitimate descendants are eligible to succeed. That means that once Albert II's reign ends his sisters, Princesses Caroline and Stephanie, and their children plus the one eligible grandchild so far* would all drop out of the order, potentially leaving a new reigning Prince or Princess with no heirs at all until he or she gets around to producing one. In the event that a sovereign dies with no eligible heir, there would be a regency until the principality's Crown Council had elected a new monarch from among the descendants of earlier sovereigns.

Until the child is born Princess Caroline will continue to be heiress presumptive, and I will leave the two charts of mine in which she or her son feature (the Heirs chart in 1952-now for the Princess, and the second Blood Royal chart for her son Andrea) alone until then. When I do change them the alteration in relationships for the Heirs chart will be just by one generation, as Princess Charlene has no royal blood and is unrelated to any current sovereign or heir. Similarly, the percentages in the Blood Royal chart will not alter.



* There is another grandchild, Raphaël, baby son of Princess Caroline’s daughter Charlotte Casiraghi and French-Moroccan actor Gad Elmaleh, but he will not feature in the succession unless and until his parents marry.

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Reply with quote  #41 

I’m sure no one cares in the slightest, but the relationship of Christian IX of Denmark to Amadeus I of Spain via Frederik III of Denmark and Norway in the 1871 chart III is now linked, which it was not before. If you click directly on 6c1r F3D you get just that one relationship, and if you click on any of the other four relationships you get instances of all four.

I have been preparing an addendum for that thread, showing the relationships of Pedro II of Brazil to the European sovereigns of the day. I have actually finished it, but due to layout problems, which are going to require some thought to resolve, it is not posted yet.  Pedro II is 6c1r to Christian IX one more time even than Amadeus I, six altogether, the additional one being through Johann Georg I, Elector of Saxony.  In the process of checking that this was not a relationship I had overlooked for Christian IX and Amadeus I (it wasn’t, it exists for Pedro II through his Bragança ancestry, not shared with Amadeus I) I reversed the direction of the red link for Christian and Amadeus and found that happily Frederik III, who does not appear at all in the direction previously used, comes up first.

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Reply with quote  #42 
The addendum for Pedro II is now posted in the 1871 thread. It does not show up as new, as I modified the existing last post rather than do a new one, which would have entailed reordering the threads to get everything back in date order. Posting the addendum turned out to be quite tricky, taking not far short of two hours to get done to my satisfaction, so I hope someone looks at it. And of course I had already had to redo the whole thing in a new layout. Originally I did it on the pattern of other such addenda, for example the one for Gustav I of Sweden in the 1558 thread. As it happened none of those I had done previously had included multiple relationships, and while the result seemed fine on the worksheet the way the multiple relationships appeared looked awful in the preview window. So I redid it as a modification of a standard chart and that worked out OK, though fiddly to get posted right as I said.

The thread introduction now mentions the addendum and explains its inclusion, and also covers the point made in the previous post about how the relationships between the Danish and Spanish monarchs are linked. I tried to include the latter as a note to the chart itself, but it wasn't going to work as an edit, I would have had to repost the whole thing. I had had enough of posting complex material (which that chart definitely qualifies as) by then, so opted for the introduction instead. Maybe I will do it some other time. (15/6: now done, and the introduction amended accordingly. I have also rewritten the end of the note on posterities to cover Pedro II's descendants.)
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #43 

Thank you for your efforts.

This forum is a great resource, and your posts are one of the main reasons for that being true.


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Peter

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Reply with quote  #44 
Thanks for your very kind words, Bo. Since you were here last all the charts have been transformed, as detailed in posts above, down in the Blood Royal II thread I have imparted more information on medieval kings of Norway and the succession of the Electors Palatine than anyone ever wished to know, and most recent has been this 1871 addition. The new project I was originally going to be posting in January has not been abandoned, but continues to make fitful progress, the writing rather than the genealogy being as ever the hold-up. I will stick my neck out boldly and say sometime this year it will be seen.
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Reply with quote  #45 

It will take hours to mine all this data.

Thanks again!


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