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jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #1 
Peter, off the top of your head, what current Royals are descended from the Rurikids?
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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Peter

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Reply with quote  #2 
All of them. For more recent Rurikids such as the Grand Princes of Moscow descent is less general, but is nevertheless enjoyed by the Queen of Denmark, Kings of Sweden, Norway and Belgium, Grand Duke of Luxembourg and Prince of Liechtenstein. There ate other descents in between which are universal, but you did say 'off the top of my head' so I won't give detail, as I would have to research first. I will mention that Edward III had a different trace of Rurikid blood to that linked, and descent from him is of course not merely universal but thousands upon thousands of times multiple, as indeed it is from Henri I.
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #3 
Surly you mean all European royals, not all royals.. [wink]
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Windemere

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Reply with quote  #4 
However, I think that if you go back to Y-Chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve, some sort of collateral relationship ought to be able to be derived.
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Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #5 
True enough, but I'd say the Emperors of Ethiopia and Japan, the Shahs of Persia, as well as the Kings of Thailand and Lesotho can safely say they are very distant cousins to the Rurikids rather than descendants.
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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Peter

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Reply with quote  #6 
Yes, sorry. Since my genealogical interests are exclusively among European royalty I tend to think only of them when asked such a question. Indeed, there is little scope for such study outside of them, since intermarriage among non-European royal lines is historically rare in the extreme. But that is not at all to deny the royalty of non-European lines such as those you mention.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #7 
Thank you, Peter. It was, of course, European Royalty that iI was concerned with. I was just too lazy to do the research since I had a friend online (you) that would know it already!
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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Peter

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Reply with quote  #8 
You're very welcome, Jovan. I enjoy being asked such questions, and wish people would do it more. It's not so much because I have a chance to show off, I know that few will be impressed with such an accumulation of 'useless and pointless knowledge', to quote Bob Dylan, but more because when I'm invited to share it I can feel briefly at least that maybe there is some small point to it after all!
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #9 
I understand there are still Rurikid families in Russia and in the Russian diaspora.  The  Massalsky, Gorchakov, Baryatinsky, Volkonsky, Obolensky, Gagarin, Dolgoruky, Ostrogsky, Shuysky are lineal descendents of the varios Rurikid lines.  The Romanov-Holstien-Gottorp line also have Rurikid blood.
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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Peter

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Reply with quote  #10 
There are, but some of those families are a little questionable, the Gorchakovs for example. It is generally accepted that they are indeed Rurikids, but the full chain of descent was lost in the protracted turmoil of the Mongol invasions, and the genealogies you will see for them are considered medieval inventions. As it happens the Rurikid blood of the Romanoffs was all from these sorts of families, so as far as authenticated chains of descent are concerned the surviving Romanoff-Holstein-Gottorp branches have only the same Rurikid blood that is present in all European royal families, with the exception of that of Montenegro.
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #11 
Very interesting indeed.  Perhaps this belongs in the "European Royal Genealogy" section though?  You are such a valuable resource for this group Peter.  This is all fascinating stuff.
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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #12 
All your answers including a link can be found here:
http://royalcello.websitetoolbox.com/post/the-rurikids-of-all-the-russias-6395358?highlight=rurikid&pid=1278733957

(NB: use Google translator for the link)
Peter

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Reply with quote  #13 
Thanks for the appreciation, Ethiomonarchist. I do like to think that I offer something worthwhile, even if it caters only to a minority interest. That is a most interesting thread and I can't imagine why I didn't participate in it, it's about as far up my alley as you could get! The Wikipedia article on Rurikid lines is actually pretty worthwhile, and here is my source for the assertion above regarding the Gorchakovs (a most admirable and eminent family in their own right, regardless of any defect in their genealogy).

Also from Wikipedia, it seems closely argued by a genuine scholar to me, and quite convincing. Either it or other such sources evidently worked for Leo van de Pas, as Genealogics does not show the Gorchakovs and suchlike families as Rurik agnates. As I said before it is pretty much accepted that they are, but lack the documented chain of descent that other branches possess.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #14 
Something interesting I saw today which I'll stick here, as it is genealogy-related; name etymology is one of the tools employed by genealogists when attempting to elucidate obscurer ancestries. Oxford University Press is shortly to publish a four-volume dictionary of surnames of the British Isles, as exhaustively and impeccably researched as you would expect. The Guardian article on the project is a little cursory, and also lazy; for example it implies that 'Campbell' deriving from the Gaelic for 'crooked mouth' is a new discovery, but I've known forever that Campbell means 'wrymouth'. The Mail offering is better, though still disappointingly brief. But I hope and expect that soon enough I'll have the whole thing available online, as a UK library member I get free access to most OUP publications, including the invaluable Dictionary of National Biography.
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