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Nero

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I came across this in the Telegraph today.

Does anyone have any idea who Prince John Zylinski is? And how he fits into the broader royal genealogy?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage/11532323/Polish-Prince-Challenges-Nigel-Farage-to-a-swords-duel-over-immigration-comments.html

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royalcello

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Reply with quote  #2 
I'm a little skeptical. A knowledgeable part-Polish Facebook friend has promised to post more on the subject tomorrow.
VivatReginaScottorum

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Do we have any updates on our alleged Polish prince? I'm actually quite curious, although I suspect he is a fake.
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KYMonarchist

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janina_coat_of_arms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo%C5%84_Ruska_coat_of_arms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Hieronimowicz_Chodkiewicz

Possible proof of the noble status of this John Zylinski character. The surname was borne by holders of two coats of arms of the szlachta and also the exact name Jan Zylinski was borne by a 16th century Polish nobleman with the rank of Prince.
Ethiomonarchist

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Why exactly are people sceptical about his title?
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Elizabelo_II

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Isn't it just western media being confused by the differences between "reigning" Prince and "royal" Prince ? There are many noble families in Poland who use that title historically after all.
Nero

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I don't necessarily doubt that he is a prince, but I would have thought that between us we would be able to find out something of his genealogy if he were.
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When Britain dies, which seems likely to happen quite soon, it will be difficult for the chief mourners to decide exactly what to say at the funeral, or what to inscribe on the national tombstone. Not many are now alive who remember what the deceased was like when he still had his health and strength. Those who knew him in his final declining years, his memory failing, his muscles withered, his estates sold off, chasing after get-rich-quick schemes and silly fashions, found it hard to imagine why he had been both so much beloved and so much hated in his prime. ~ P. Hitchens
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero
I don't necessarily doubt that he is a prince, but I would have thought that between us we would be able to find out something of his genealogy if he were.


This. I have spent a couple of hours researching this, and I can find nothing. Post the Union of Lublin, 1 July 1569, of course, the King of Poland-Lithuania was prohibited by law from granting titles. All 'Polish' titles after that date were granted by foreign monarchs, usually the Emperor or the Pope. For instance, Jackie Kennedy's sister, Lee Bouvier, married Prince Stanisław Albrecht Radziwiłł, of the Princely House of Radziwiłł. Their founder was granted the title of Reichsfürst (Prince of the Empire or Imperial Prince) by the Emperor.

I have been unable to find any Zylinskis in a rather exhaustive search of Polish, heraldic, and genealogical sites, including Heraldica, the online Gotha, and the Polish Nobility Association.

So, my gut reaction, is we have here a self-styled 'prince' who has no right to the title.



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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #9 
Jovan, did you see my post on two coats of arms born by Polish nobility? There's three more that can be found if you search Zylinski on Wikipedia. That might help narrow the search.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYMonarchist
Jovan, did you see my post on two coats of arms born by Polish nobility? There's three more that can be found if you search Zylinski on Wikipedia. That might help narrow the search.


I did, but it's hardly proof of the gentleman's title. The only Zylinski with an article is Tadeusz, a 20th century professor who served under the Communists. If he had a title he didn't use it. The name only appears on one of the two pages of Arms you linked to, Pogon-Ruska, and there only as an uncited name in the details box. It doesn't even occur on the Janina Arms page, despite what the search  results on Wikipedia say. On the Jan Hieronimowicz Chodkiewicz page, it occurs twice, as the surname of his son-in-law, both times unlinked and uncited. 

There is also, on Wikipedia, a rather lengthy list of princely houses of Poland, including ones that have died out, ones granted titles by foreign monarchs, and unrecognised houses. Zylinski does not occur in the list.

From the dates, all of this 'evidence' would be well over 400 years old.
Most szlachta families and those ennobled by foreign monarchs produced at least a few notable members over the years as a quick perusal of Wikipedia will show. 

Given that 'evidence', or should I say, lack of evidence, I'm going with a 'self-ennoblement' whether by the gentleman in question or one of his near ancestors. I would guess that his name is, indeed, Zylinski, and that he or an ancestor discovered that there was once a szlachta family of that name and adopted the title.

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Elizabelo_II

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jovan66102
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYMonarchist
Jovan, did you see my post on two coats of arms born by Polish nobility? There's three more that can be found if you search Zylinski on Wikipedia. That might help narrow the search.


I did, but it's hardly proof of the gentleman's title. The only Zylinski with an article is Tadeusz, a 20th century professor who served under the Communists. If he had a title he didn't use it. The name only appears on one of the two pages of Arms you linked to, Pogon-Ruska, and there only as an uncited name in the details box. It doesn't even occur on the Janina Arms page, despite what the search  results on Wikipedia say. On the Jan Hieronimowicz Chodkiewicz page, it occurs twice, as the surname of his son-in-law, both times unlinked and uncited. 

There is also, on Wikipedia, a rather lengthy list of princely houses of Poland, including ones that have died out, ones granted titles by foreign monarchs, and unrecognised houses. Zylinski does not occur in the list.

From the dates, all of this 'evidence' would be well over 400 years old.
Most szlachta families and those ennobled by foreign monarchs produced at least a few notable members over the years as a quick perusal of Wikipedia will show. 

Given that 'evidence', or should I say, lack of evidence, I'm going with a 'self-ennoblement' whether by the gentleman in question or one of his near ancestors. I would guess that his name is, indeed, Zylinski, and that he or an ancestor discovered that there was once a szlachta family of that name and adopted the title.


Well it may not be exactly extensive, this is wikipedia after all, there are contless historical countries they don't even have pages for, so it depends on an article to article basis, but I concede your point.

Edit: researching this on Polish websites, they do deny his use of the title "Prince" or "Książę" but there did appear to be Princes Żyliński descended from the Princes of Smolensk, according to Marzena Liedke's "Szlachta ruska Wielkiego Księstwa Litewskiego a reformacja " (The Russian Nobility of the Grand Principality of Lithuania and the reformation") located here http://kamunikat.fontel.net/www/czasopisy/bzh/18/18art_liedke.htm) however the last recorded member was Andrzej Żyliński who died in 1602. He appears to have had no children, but his brother Jan Żyliński, died 1600, had two daughters Dorota and Katarzyna Żyliński. Katarzyna died in 1643 and according to J. Wolff's rather extensive 660 plus page , "Kniaziowie litewsko-ruscy od końca XIV wieku" ("Lithuanian-Russian Princes since the end of the 14th century", Warszaw 1895) she married Jan Ogiński and then Krzysztof Kiszka, but neither marriage was blessed with progeny.

Around the same time there is mention of a school rector by the name "Jeremiasz Żyliński", however his connection to Katarzyna or the Żyliński princely house as a whole cannot be confirmed.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #12 
Thank you, Isabello. Your research strengthens my opinion that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jovan66102
(H)is name is, indeed, Zylinski, and that he or an ancestor discovered that there was once a szlachta family of that name and adopted the title.

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Asevich

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Reply with quote  #13 
Please, read about dvorenins Zhilin and Zhilinsky  on  http://www.vgd.ru (click the  field alfavitny spisok)
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Read about dvorenins Zhilin and Zhilinsky on http://www.vgd.ru (alfavitny spisok).

Elizabelo_II

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Reply with quote  #14 
That post seems a bit out of nowhere and your account really seems a bit spambot-ey,

Also not sure how many people here can speak/read Russian.
Asevich

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Reply with quote  #15 
Hon.Elizabela, read the article "Origin of dvorenins Zhilinsky and Zhilin"   on  google.com. The first article is in Russian. So go down and read the article in English. Dvorenins means landlords or nobles. It is my family of Jewish origin. Very likely, your "prince" John Zylinski is from my family, because his face looks Jewish...So he cannot be from any royal family. Put "Jan Mordas-Zylinski 1560 h.Janina"  in google.com. It is their family tree on geni.com.They also pretends to have the coat of arms Janina, like our short lived Smolensk dukes Zhilinsky...
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Read about dvorenins Zhilin and Zhilinsky on http://www.vgd.ru (alfavitny spisok).

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