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Queenslander

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Reply with quote  #46 
It is actions like this, borne more out of a confused desire for modernity (a false God if there is ever one), that make me think that the New World was about five hundred years too early for the Papacy to be thrust upon it if the current occupant of the See of Peter is a yardstick.
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jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Here's a papal initiative I can condemn for a change, an attack on the familiar English translation of the Lord's Prayer. Firstly, the English liturgy is none of the Pope's business. Secondly, I detest fussy fiddling with ancient usages which need no change. And thirdly, his whole line of attack seems theologically questionable to me, and even tending towards dualism. Maybe for once I will find myself in agreement with the other regular interlocutors on this thread.


Peter, here is an exchange I had on a Catholic forum:


SaintSebastian Wrote: The wording he is proposing is how the Church has always understood the meaning, but why not just remind people that is what is meant, rather than changing the words as they have been handed down?

Because this way, he's changing the very words of Our Blessed Lord in Holy Scripture, at least as the Church has received them from St Jerome's translation, and the Anglophone Church from the Rheims New Testament!



Quote: From The Gospel Arccording to St Matthew, Chapter 6
et ne inducas nos in temptationem sed libera nos a malo (St Jerome's Vulgate)

And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. (Challoner Revision of the Douai-Rheims)

I've been saying for years that those who want to destroy the Church (HAH! Good luck with that!), like Francis, have adopted a tactic from the Trotskyite communists, the concept of 'permanent revolution'. Keep the revolution going with new prayers, new translations of the Liturgy, new devotions, etc., so that the Faithful find it more and more difficult to discern the True Divine and Catholic Faith amid the revolutionary verbiage.


And, further, a couple of quotes from a weekly Catholic paper:

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Remnant
The original text from the Lord's Prayer, as taken from the Latin Vulgate, reads, "et ne inducas nos in temptationem sed libera nos a malo," which translated is, "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." (Matthew 6:13)

Hence this is not a translation issue, but a scriptural issue. The English translations of the Our Father as recited today are correct, because they are taken from the Vulgate, which is the official version of Holy Scripture—the source from which all authentic translations must directly or indirectly be taken.

Francis is apparently upset over the idea of being led away from temptation, since he is led by the temptation of globalism and change. The Bible threatens him to give up his change, so instead of humbly admitting that scripture is correct, he judges that it is incorrect, in the same way he has denied the miracle of the loaves and has judged that evangelization is "solemn nonsense."
 

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #48 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Firstly, the English liturgy is none of the Pope's business.


Peter, sorry, but I just noticed this. Au contraire, the liturgy of the Catholic Church, regardless of language is the business of the Pope and the Catholic Church, and no one else's.

However, one more omen of an impending schism between the Catholic Church and FrancisChurch. An international 'Pledge of Fidelity to the Magisterium of the Church' has been signed by a large number of prominent lay leaders of Catholic apostolates, entitled 'Faithful to True Pastors, Not to Erring Doctrine', stating quite plainly, 

Quote:
We pledge our full obedience to the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in the legitimate exercise of is authority. However, nothing will ever persuade us, or compel us, to abandon or contradict any article of the Catholic faith or any truth definitively established. If there is any conflict between the words and acts of any member of the hierarchy, even the pope, and the doctrine that the Church has always taught, we will remain faithful to the perennial teaching of the Church. If we were to depart from the Catholic faith, we would depart from Jesus Christ, to whom we wish to be united for all eternity.


It's only a matter of time now, if Francis continues on his path of attacking the Catholic Faith and attempting to destroy the Church, until there is a formal schism.

There are already calls for the convoking of an 'imperfect synod' to declare him deposed from the Papacy under Canon Law, which is a perfectly Canonical process if a Pope falls into heresy, which Francis has, as proven by his own words and actions.

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Queenslander

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Reply with quote  #49 
It has been a long time since a Pope has been removed from office, I think Francis is on a collision course for this not to be the case in the near future; and for this to be the last Jesuit Papacy that we will see for about a millennium I'd say.
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Peter

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Reply with quote  #50 
I highly doubt that the Church will put itself through such a convulsion. I thought you might object to that, Jovan. Naturally I accept that the liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church in England is the business of the Roman Catholic Church and no one else. However, the Pope's strictures were not as far as I could see so narrowly specified, being more a general criticism of the (perfectly accurate) translation which is also in use in other churches, most notably the established church of the land.

Further, while the Roman Church does not in general entertain autonomy in national churches, still less autocephaly, surely there is some degree of local authority competent to deal with the question without the Church's worldwide head making an intervention? If, that is, the question needed dealing with in the first place. Which it did not.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #51 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
I highly doubt that the Church will put itself through such a convulsion. I thought you might object to that, Jovan.


Whilst I have no desire to see the Church rent in two between the Catholics and the 'Francistas', I very much fear that is exactly what is coming. I think I may have already posted about Francis' remark that he may go down in history as the Pope that split the Church.

More and more Cardinals and Bishops are calling him out on his blatant heresy, and the faithful laity are beginning to question. It will soon hit him in the pocket book. For years, faithful Catholics in many dioceses have refused to contribute to their local Church because of the insanity of their Bishops. They sent their donations directly to Rome. Now that Francis has proven himself less Catholic than most of the nutter Bishops, those same people are redirecting their contributions to orthodox Catholic organisations, which despite Francis' best efforts to destroy them, still exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Naturally I accept that the liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church in England is the business of the Roman Catholic Church and no one else. However, the Pope's strictures were not as far as I could see so narrowly specified, being more a general criticism of the (perfectly accurate) translation which is also in use in other churches, most notably the established church of the land.


I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Further, while the Roman Church does not in general entertain autonomy in national churches, still less autocephaly, surely there is some degree of local authority competent to deal with the question without the Church's worldwide head making an intervention? If, that is, the question needed dealing with in the first place. Which it did not.


The National Bishops' Conferences, a concept invented in the insanity of the 'Spirit of Vatican II' , has the authority, but Rome has to approve it. That's what makes this doubly frustrating. France had changed the translation, even tho' there was no warrant for changing it, and Francis had approved it. That's as far as it would have gone, had he not publicly suggested that it be changed in Italian (and by extension, suggesting its change in other languages).

His latest shenanigan that you might have heard of, was to give a Papal knighthood to a fervent supporter of abortion. It's only a matter of time, unless God calls him home, until there is a formal schism or an imperfect council is called and he is deposed.

For my part, he's still the Pope and I pray for his intentions every day, but I also add a fervent, heartfelt prayer for his return to the Catholic Faith.

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Peter

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Reply with quote  #52 
I hadn't heard about the knighthood, but have now informed myself. The lady in question, a Dutch Catholic politician, was among the ministers in attendance during a state visit to the Vatican, and the knighthood appears to have been awarded as part of a normal exchange of diplomatic courtesies. It seems unlikely that Pope Francis, who has in fact publicly and vehemently affirmed the Catholic position on abortion (a position I think profoundly immoral and wrong), was even aware of the honour being conferred. Though I expect he is by now, he probably won't risk causing a diplomatic rift by rescinding it. Maybe some functionary in the Papal chancery will get their knuckles rapped, but I expect that otherwise the story will be allowed to die naturally.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #53 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
I hadn't heard about the knighthood, but have now informed myself. The lady in question, a Dutch Catholic politician, was among the ministers in attendance during a state visit to the Vatican, and the knighthood appears to have been awarded as part of a normal exchange of diplomatic courtesies. It seems unlikely that Pope Francis, who has in fact publicly and vehemently affirmed the Catholic position on abortion (a position I think profoundly immoral and wrong), was even aware of the honour being conferred. Though I expect he is by now, he probably won't risk causing a diplomatic rift by rescinding it. Maybe some functionary in the Papal chancery will get their knuckles rapped, but I expect that otherwise the story will be allowed to die naturally.


Whilst I seriously doubt that he knew nothing about it, the silence from the Vatican in response to her publicly claiming that it was given to her in recognition for her work is positively deafening!

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #54 
And a bit more about the possibility of him being ignotant of what happened.

The investiture takes place after the Prelate sponsoring the Candidates (I wonder who that was!), says that, 'the Pontifical Order of St Gregory the Great “is conferred as a reward for services to the Holy See and the Church on gentlemen/ladies of proved loyalty who must maintain unswerving fidelity to God, the Supreme Pontiff, the Holy See and the Church.”'

I'm curious as to what 'fidelity to God, the Supreme Pontiff, the Holy See and the Church', was used to award the honour to someone who spits in the face of God and His Church.

And, just for the record, this is not some gong handed out willy-nilly to every Tom, Dick, and Harry. The approval of candidates for this high honour must be given by the pope himself.


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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #55 
It seems strange to me to say that the Vatican wouldn't rescind this honour for diplomatic reasons. That seems a compromise of the moral sincerity of the Church.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #56 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
It seems strange to me to say that the Vatican wouldn't rescind this honour for diplomatic reasons. That seems a compromise of the moral sincerity of the Church.


I have absolutely no doubt that Francis did this quite deliberately. Moral theologians are already pointing out that if his heresy regarding adulterers receiving communion is allowed to stand, it undermines the entire moral teaching of the Church. If adultery isn't a sin (and he obviously doesn't believe it is, despite Holy Scripture), why should murder be!

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
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Reply with quote  #57 
Holy Scripture says that divorce is allowable in cases of adultery. However the Church, knowing better than a minor and unimportant figure like Jesus Christ, does not allow it. So if Holy Scripture can be set aside over that, so can it be over other matters. It really would not be practicable for the Pope to scrutinize each and every candidate on a long list of honours, he has to have some trust in his staff. Who, in view of the controversy, have obviously let him down on this occasion. As for the moral authority of the Church, this would not be the first compromised decision in its long history. Or, indeed, the five millionth.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #58 
Moral sincerity is somewhat different from moral authority. Again, I think we are back to the issue of not mixing up a Catholic perspective with other perspectives. I'm not an expert on the Catholic position on divorce.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #59 
They are distinguishable, but to me moral authority cannot exist in the absence of moral sincerity. As I understand it, and Jovan will correct me if I'm wrong, the Catholic position on divorce is that it does not exist, only death can sunder a union once made. So it is necessary when divorce is desired to find some casuistic reason why the union was never validly made to begin with.
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Reply with quote  #60 
Necessary for whom?
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