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Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #31 
Perhaps, although he does seem to know the limits. He hasn't ordered, for example, the legitimisation of divorce and remarriage, at most he has made a few tentative moves in this area.

It is hard to know whether Francis personally holds heretical opinions or is just naive.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Perhaps, although he does seem to know the limits. He hasn't ordered, for example, the legitimisation of divorce and remarriage, at most he has made a few tentative moves in this area. It is hard to know whether Francis personally holds heretical opinions or is just naive.


I don't think he's naive. He is a highly trained Jesuit theologian, who was once Rector of the Theological Faculty at a Jesuit University. He knows exactly what he's saying. And his 'few tentative moves' in his Apostolic Exhortation 'Amoris Laetitia' are so deliberately vague that any Bishop who wishes to can admit adulterers to Holy Communion. They are skirting heresy so closely that four senior Cardinals have asked him to clarify them. Instead of clarifying what he said, he's loosed his bully boy apparatchiks to try to intimidate Their Eminences.

Here is an excellent article about what is going on:


Pope Francis’ Reported Words: “I Might Go Down in History for Having Split the Catholic Church”

http://www.onepeterfive.com/pope-francis-reported-words-might-go-history-split-church/




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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #33 
But what can he do? As far as I can see, there is no way he can change the doctrine here. All he can do is tinker around the edges. To try to change doctrines like this would seem to endanger the whole Catholic idea of the magisterium and the faith.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
But what can he do? As far as I can see, there is no way he can change the doctrine here. All he can do is tinker around the edges. To try to change doctrines like this would seem to endanger the whole Catholic idea of the magisterium and the faith.


You are quite right that, 'To try to change doctrines like this would seem to endanger the whole Catholic idea of the magisterium and the faith'.

However, what he can do is to try to change doctrine, thereby causing all those who actually believe in Catholicism, as taught for the last 2000 years, to leave the Church by becoming, technically, sedevacantist. Millions. who know no better, will follow him. The remnant that truly are Catholic will coalesce around faithful Bishops and Priests and await, in God's good time, the coming of a truly Catholic Pope. As I believe I've said, my daily prayer is, 'How long, O God, how long, until you send us a Catholic Pope'?

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #35 
And here is the fruit of his 'skirting heresy'. The Bishops of Malta have assured adulterers than they may receive Holy Communion 'if they feel at peace with God'. This is a total departure from 2000 years of Catholic teaching!

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/01/13/maltas-bishops-tell-the-remarried-take-communion-if-you-feel-at-peace-with-god/

And notice the creeping heresy and modernism, even in the headline. A married Catholic, who has not received a Canonical annulment, cannot 'remarry'!

__________________
'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Perhaps, although he does seem to know the limits. He hasn't ordered, for example, the legitimisation of divorce and remarriage, at most he has made a few tentative moves in this area. It is hard to know whether Francis personally holds heretical opinions or is just naive.


More news on this little matter.

Canon Law and the Confessional: Another Conflict With Amoris Laetitia

'
As was to be expected, the first cases are now coming up where priests are being punished for not going along with the new “spirit” of Amoris Laetitia. That is to say, for not willingly administering the Sacraments (especially Penance and the Eucharist) to the “remarried” divorcees who do not themselves intend to change their habitual way of life, yet still, wish to have open access to the Sacraments.'

 



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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #37 
And now for a personal reflection on this matter. When my wife left me 12 years ago, I entered into an adulterous union (which led me to Canada, so it did have an upside) being fully aware of the Church's Teachings on the matter. As long as that union persisted, I went to Mass regularly but never went to Confession or Holy Communion. Why should I? I had, at the time, no intention of ending the union, and to make a good Confession requires a firm purpose to avoid sin and the occasion of sin in the future. I could not, in good conscience, approach the Sacrament of Penance. And to receive Holy Communion in a state of mortal sin is a further sin in itself.

My 'in-laws' could not understand why I wouldn't receive the Sacraments, and in the interests of family peace, I never tried to explain.

When the union ended (not my doing, to my shame!), I immediately went to Confession and Holy Communion, and my health permitting, have continued to do so. Now, after twelve years of not speaking to one another, my wife and I are making tentative moves toward a reconciliation!



__________________
'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #38 
I just don't understand Francis. AL is a mess. Its meaning seems up in the air, and the Pope seems resolutely unwilling to clarify that meaning, even after the very sensible and polite request from the four cardinals.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
I just don't understand Francis. AL is a mess. Its meaning seems up in the air, and the Pope seems resolutely unwilling to clarify that meaning, even after the very sensible and polite request from the four cardinals.


But he said that Christoph Cardinal Graf von Schönborn's heretical explanation was correct. Of course, His Eminence had been in the forefront of those wanting to change the doctrine and admit adulterers to the Sacraments.

 


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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #40 
"Who am I to judge?' I am sickened! Every time this anti-Catholic communist opens his mouth I move one more step  towards sedevacantism!


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4259164/Pope-quietly-trims-sanctions-sex-abusers-seeking-mercy.html

__________________
'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #41 
Well, I'm sure there are thousands and thousands of new sedevacantists in the world tonight, since Bergoglio elevated his heresy to the 'authentic magisterium' of the Church. I for one will not receive Holy Communion as long as he remains Pope, because that would imply that I am in communion with a known, manifest heretic. However, I have not become a sedevacantists because to make that decision is far, far above my pay grade. He is still the Pope, but I cannot be in communion with him.
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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Peter

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Reply with quote  #42 
I was naturally curious as to what the Pope has done now. This was the answer. Whether the move was genuinely within his authority or not isn't up to me to say. But, if he is the supreme authority in the Church, it seems to me that it must be up to him. And he evidently feels that this was a right and proper change to make to the Church's practices.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #43 
It's not up to the Pope to set aside settled doctrine or propound heresy. That's not the Catholic understanding of the role of the Pope. Could Francis legitimately declare Arius was correct after all? Obviously not. The question of course is what is the status of both the teaching Francis is trying to alter and how is he trying to alter it. But it doesn't look good for Francis, from a Catholic perspective.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
It's not up to the Pope to set aside settled doctrine or propound heresy. That's not the Catholic understanding of the role of the Pope. Could Francis legitimately declare Arius was correct after all? Obviously not. The question of course is what is the status of both the teaching Francis is trying to alter and how is he trying to alter it. But it doesn't look good for Francis, from a Catholic perspective.


Well said!

Here is what the Church has to say on this matter: 

Quote:

According to Our Lord Jesus Christ, His Apostle Saint Paul and the

Infallible Teaching Authority of the One, Holy, Roman, Catholic and Apostolic

Church, such a marriage contracted between two baptized Christians and duly

witnessed is indissoluble: Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh.

What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. Matt.

19:6(b), and, further, the Apostle says: But to them that are married, not I

but the Lord commandeth, that the wife depart not from her husband. And if

she depart, that she remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband. And

let not the husband put away his wife. First Corinthians 7:10,11,

And further, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states in Paragraph 1640:

Thus the marriage bond has been established by God himself in such a way that

a marriage concluded and consummated between baptized persons can never be

dissolved. This bond, which results from the free human act of the spouses

and their consummation of the marriage, is a reality, henceforth irrevocable,

and gives rise to a covenant guaranteed by God's fidelity. The Church does

not have the power to contravene this disposition of divine wisdom.[144],

And the Code of Canon Law, 1983, in Canon 1141: A marriage which is ratified

and consummated cannot be dissolved by any human power or by any cause other

than death.

 Excuse the rather stilted language, but this is part of a brief filed in a civil 'divorce' case.


The Church's position is summed up here, and it does not give the Pope the power to willy-nilly change God's Law, enshrined in Scripture, and explained in the Catechism and Canon Law.

From A Catholic Catechism of Social Questions, Fr T.J. O'Kane, 1936, Nihil Obstat, Henricus Canonicus Forbes, Censor Deputatus, Gulielmus Canonicus Daly, Vicarius Generalis (my emphasis):


Quote:Question 67: What is the scope of the Church's power with regard to God's laws?

Answer: The Church is the interpreter of the natural law; she is the interpreter and promulgator of the divine positive law; and she is empowered to make laws of her own.

Natural law: To the Church belongs the right to say what is contained in the natural law.
Divine positive law: Of this the Church is the divinely appointed custodian, interpreter, and promulgator.
Laws of her own: The Church cannot alter God's law, whether it be the natural law or divine positive law, yet within the framework of God's law she can make by-laws, and with God's authority; e.g., she requires the presence of a priest for Catholic marriage. These by-laws , being her own, she can alter, but she cannot alter God's law, nor has she any desire to do so.

'She cannot alter God's law, nor has she any desire to do so.' Well, at least until this Pontificate!
__________________
'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Peter

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Reply with quote  #45 
Here's a papal initiative I can condemn for a change, an attack on the familiar English translation of the Lord's Prayer. Firstly, the English liturgy is none of the Pope's business. Secondly, I detest fussy fiddling with ancient usages which need no change. And thirdly, his whole line of attack seems theologically questionable to me, and even tending towards dualism. Maybe for once I will find myself in agreement with the other regular interlocutors on this thread.
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