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CaesarII

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I hope for a more solemn occasion at Westminster Abbey than at St Anne's Parish Church today. The vicar was totally jokey and informal, and so was the service. In his homily he let us all know that baptism had nothing to do with the salvation of souls, "if one person goes to Heaven, we all go". Oh yes? I think a few here might disagree, also with baptism being "a rite of passage, an initiation ceremony." As my great-niece Chloe is all of seven weeks old, I reckon the baptism should have been deferred in that case.

 
I never did get those protestants who have infant baptism yet continue to say it is purely symbolic.
 
Have you spoken on the telephone with Theodore yet? I am sure we are all anxious to hear if his flight across the pond went well.
jovan66102

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Originally Posted by CaesarII
Quote:
I hope for a more solemn occasion at Westminster Abbey than at St Anne's Parish Church today. The vicar was totally jokey and informal, and so was the service. In his homily he let us all know that baptism had nothing to do with the salvation of souls, "if one person goes to Heaven, we all go". Oh yes? I think a few here might disagree, also with baptism being "a rite of passage, an initiation ceremony." As my great-niece Chloe is all of seven weeks old, I reckon the baptism should have been deferred in that case.

 
I never did get those protestants who have infant baptism yet continue to say it is purely symbolic. 
 


Of course, if St Anne's Parish Church is CofE as it sounds, the cleric is just an heretic, since the CofE definitely teaches the salvific efficacy of infant baptism.

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
KYMonarchist

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Originally Posted by Peter
  "if one person goes to Heaven, we all go". 

I know of no religion on Earth that would allow Adolf Hitler to be rewarded in the afterlife simply because somebody else behaved well and truly good on this Earth.


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BaronVonServers

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Peter,
Sorry that you got such swill from the cleric at the Christening, and glad you got to see the child.

KYM,
While Adolf could, by God's infinite Grace and Mercy, have made a death-bed confession and been converted and been saved based 'simply' on the merits of and by the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord. even that requires that Adolf to have personally repented......

Caesar,
Water Baptism is (at least and among other things) "a rite of passage, an initiation ceremony." As such it wouldn't be in appropriate for infants, born into a Christian Family to be baptized, even if that baptism is thought of as only a 'declaration by proxy' pending the child's own confirmation of the vows when he reaches the age of accountability. 



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Peter

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Reply with quote  #20 
No, I haven't heard from Theodore. I expect he will get some Internet access and post soon. Sorry about the moaning. Funny thing is, I was probably the only avowed atheist there out of 40+ people, and probably the only one who noticed the rank heresy and general absence of religion! My mother said afterwards "Didn't you think that was a lovely service?" We were still in the church, C of E indeed, and I muttered back "I'd better not say what I think."

My great-niece is an absolute sweetheart. My niece and her family live near Seattle, so all I had seen was loads of oictures on Facebook. She just looked like a baby, they're all a bit alike. In person she was utterly beautiful and extremely well-behaved, not a single peep out of her during the service, or at any time.
CaesarII

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KYM,
While Adolf could, by God's infinite Grace and Mercy, have made a death-bed confession and been converted and been saved based 'simply' on the merits of and by the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord. even that requires that Adolf to have personally repented......

Except that he was a suicide.


Quote:

Caesar,
Water Baptism is (at least and among other things) "a rite of passage, an initiation ceremony." As such it wouldn't be in appropriate for infants, born into a Christian Family to be baptized, even if that baptism is thought of as only a 'declaration by proxy' pending the child's own confirmation of the vows when he reaches the age of accountability. 




Baptism and Confirmation are two differant Sacraments. Baptism leaves a irreversible mark upon the soul, and only the baptized may be saved. Hence it is only proper, for the salvation of the child, to have them baptized.
CaesarII

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Funny thing is, I was probably the only avowed atheist there out of 40+ people, and probably the only one who noticed the rank heresy and general absence of religion!


I do not find it surprising at all that an atheist knows more about religion then it's own adherents!
BaronVonServers

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Originally Posted by CaesarII

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KYM,
While Adolf could, by God's infinite Grace and Mercy, have made a death-bed confession and been converted and been saved based 'simply' on the merits of and by the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord. even that requires that Adolf to have personally repented......

Except that he was a suicide.

Well, so it is said.
Even so, he could have lived long enough to repent of the act.  Not very likely, but still just inside the circle of possible events....



Quote:
Originally Posted by CaesarII

Quote:

Caesar,
Water Baptism is (at least and among other things) "a rite of passage, an initiation ceremony." As such it wouldn't be in appropriate for infants, born into a Christian Family to be baptized, even if that baptism is thought of as only a 'declaration by proxy' pending the child's own confirmation of the vows when he reaches the age of accountability. 




Baptism and Confirmation are two differant Sacraments.

Certainly are!  Who could ever confuse them?

One is a justified from Scripture, the other, tradition. 

The baptism is followed by confirmation.  When one is of riper years they can be 'back to back' but when the one is given an infant (his parents and godparents answering for him), there is usually a rather longer wait for the latter....
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaesarII

Baptism leaves a irreversible mark upon the soul, and only the baptized may be saved. Hence it is only proper, for the salvation of the child, to have them baptized.

You've answered from the 'effective grace' perspective'.

I was answering from the perspective of the symbolist an objection you raised "I never did get those protestants who have infant baptism yet continue to say it is purely symbolic. ".....

Though of course I don't know of any that hold to 'pure symbolism' and infant baptism at the same time....(There are those of us who understand a 'mystery' and could support infant baptism and a later adult baptism of the confirmed, but I may be the sole member of that crowd....)

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jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #24 

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Originally Posted by BaronVonServers


One is a justified from Scripture, the other, tradition. 



Nein, Non, Nyet! Both are Scriptural, as are all seven Sacraments of the Catholic Churchl!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRV, my emphasis
14 Now, when the apostles, who were in Jerusalem, had heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John. 15 Who, when they were come, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost. 16 For he was not as yet come upon any of them: but they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands upon them: and they received the Holy Ghost.  


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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
LegitimistJacobite

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Reply with quote  #25 
Who was it who said that members of the Church of England can believe anything at all, and most of them don't?

I don't think the Abbey will disappoint, Peter.  At one time I went there quite a lot for Evensong, as I worked very near by, indeed the view from my office window was of the Abbey and the Palace of Westminster.  Everything is conducted to a very high standard, and I am sure the interminable prayers at the end for the Royal Family will please you!  Choral Evensong is really one of the chief glories of the Church of England, and I am certainly looking forward to it.
royalcello

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Reply with quote  #26 
Greetings from Lichfield!  Travel has gone smoothly so far and Lichfield is every bit as charming as I'd hoped.  We rehearsed this morning up in the tower via a tiny medieval staircase and will sing our first Evensong this afternoon.  We got here yesterday in time to hear Lichfield's own choir sing their last Evensong before their summer vacation.

Funny that even this thread has provoked a religious discussion.  I'm sure Peter and others who come will be more satisfied withour Westminster Abbey evensong next week!

BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #27 
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Originally Posted by jovan66102

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers


One is a justified from Scripture, the other, tradition. 



Nein, Non, Nyet! Both are Scriptural, as are all seven Sacraments of the Catholic Churchl!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRV, my emphasis
14 Now, when the apostles, who were in Jerusalem, had heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John. 15 Who, when they were come, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost. 16 For he was not as yet come upon any of them: but they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands upon them: and they received the Holy Ghost.  


Jovan,
You truly do love me!
You're willing to attempt to show me from what I can accept things that I do not, in order that my soul might be preserved.  Thank you!

I have no troubles with there being sacraments beyond the two established and ordered by our Lord during here stay in the flesh.  Marriage comes to mind, as the oldest sacrament, predating even the fall....

However, the text provided shows that "Baptism in the name of the Son" (only) is 'corrected' by this 'confirmation'.  (The same sort of conditions exist in chapter 19, where it is Paul that lays hands on those who where baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus). 

We don't have supportive text for confirmation of those already baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.  What we do have is a traditional understanding that this is done with and for those who were 'of the household' and baptized, according to the scriptures at the head of the house's conversion.



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Peter

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Reply with quote  #28 

The religious discussion was my fault, I knew full well it was inevitable from what I said. I didn't think it would be acrimonious, though, and it hasn't, only interesting. Glad you arrived safely and didn't mind too much, Theodore, and I hope it goes well tonight and with the rest of the tour.

royalcello

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Reply with quote  #29 
Our first Evensong went very well; the Dean and the Precentor were gracious hosts.  It's really quite thrilling to be here, even if the Cathedral staff have been a bit apologetic about the restoration work that is beginning in the Lady Chapel (behind the high altar).  The west front of the Cathedral is quite inspiring for a monarchist, with statues of the Norman kings from William I through Richard II on the left, St. Chad in the middle, and the Anglo-Saxon kings on the right.  Also there is a statue (which ironically looks quite a bit older) of Charles II who aided in the restoration after the civil war. 

This afternoon I went up the spire of the Lichfield Heritage Centre (formerly a parish church) which offers a spectacular view of Lichfield and the surrounding countryside.  Also bought a copy of Boswell's "Life of Johnson" in the bookshop located on the ground floor of the house where Dr Johnson was born.

Hope to see Noachian and Martinus here this week!


Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #30 

A few years ago I went to a vespers service (is that the same as Evensong?) at Westminster Abbey.  Sadly there were more clergy than congregants present.  The prayers for the Queen were most gratifying, but the service was led by a "priestess".  The emptiness of churches in Europe is something that disturbs me deeply, being used to the packed churches in Ethiopia and the well attended ones here in the States.  I had hopes that the more traditional approach of Benedict XVI might draw more people into Catholic Churches.  Has anyone seen any evidence of this?


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