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DavidV

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http://www.timesofisrael.com/white-house-netanyahus-choices-led-to-anti-settlement-un-resolution/

As much as we bash the EU, it's the UN which needs to be completely disbanded and the latest act by them illustrates that. Since its founding, the UN (Useless Nitwits/Unnecessary Nuisance) has spearheaded the attack on Western Civilisation, from decolonisation to protecting the worst violators of human rights to refugee policy. It is a platform for almost every Third World tyrant to scapegoat the West for their self-inflicted ills. It is used by Russia and China to protect all of their buddies no matter how blood-drenched they are. The UN gives in to tyrants and terrorists, they can bully Israel, Sri Lanka, Japan and Australia on "human rights" and "racism", yet simultaneously protect mass murderers and terrorists. Disband it completely if the world is to be saved!

Ethiomonarchist

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Quote:
As much as we bash the EU, it's the UN which needs to be completely disbanded and the latest act by them illustrates that. Since its founding, the UN (Useless Nitwits/Unnecessary Nuisance) has spearheaded the attack on Western Civilisation, from decolonisation to protecting the worst violators of human rights to refugee policy.


De-colonisation was a great service to the world.  Colonialism is responsible for the stamping out (or weakening to the point of uselessness) of legitimate monarchial structures and states across the world, all in the interests of expanding the markets and sources of raw materials for the ravenous middle classes of Europe.  I wont hold that against them.  I also think that it is high time the U.S. stopped pandering to Israel's bad behavior.  Disbanding the only global forum where states can engage in this manner is a bit extreme over a rather mild "denunciation" of what is acknowledged by all to be an illegal act anyway.  I'm no fan of the Palestinian Authority, but Israel is far from blameless.  It's high time they were called out on their share of stoking the flames.

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
DavidV

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Why single out Israel when vastly worse abusers of human rights exist? I am ticked off by how UN-linked bodies can lecture Australia, Japan, Israel, Sri Lanka et al on alleged faults of theirs, but overlook the wrongs of many other countries who are generally shielded by Russia and China anyway. Let's not forget that many smaller nations allegedly receive payments from Russia, China and Taiwan helps perpetuate corruption in those places too.
royalcello

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Originally Posted by Ethiomonarchist


De-colonisation was a great service to the world.  Colonialism is responsible for the stamping out (or weakening to the point of uselessness) of legitimate monarchial structures and states across the world, all in the interests of expanding the markets and sources of raw materials for the ravenous middle classes of Europe. 

 

I could fully agree with you if decolonisation had resulted in the restoration of those monarchies. But for the most part it didn't. So I cannot regard it as "a great service to the world," despite sharing your reservations regarding the long term effects of 19th-20th-century European colonialism.

Wessexman

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I agree with both Ethio and David. There are settlements that in are areas that Israel will require for secure borders, as the 1967 borders simply are not secure for Israel. It might still be better not to build in these areas as yet, but there is some justification for building now. But the settlements beyond this are not right, especially Netanyahu's punitive building of them (although he is partly restraining more hardline forces within Israel who want even more). The settlements are particularly stupid as they are the one true blot against Israel that can be weighed against the many of the Palestinians. The Palestinians are still far more to blame for the lack of a solution to the conflict, but the settlements prevent Israel having completely clean hands. Given the unhinged hatred of Israel in both the Arab world and much of the West, this is all very unfortunate.

Still, the amount of time the UN devotes to investigating, reporting on, and denouncing Israel is absurd. I read it was something like 60% of its time and energy. This might not be entirely true, but it is true that Israel is disproportionately picked on, when even within the Israel-Palestine conflict it is not Israel who is the main problem.
DavidV

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Part of it is a knee-jerk and part of it is genuine disgust at the situation. Given the demonisation of Britain, Australia and other Western nations, their culture, history et al by their own elites, a visceral reaction to this is hardly illogical.

The problem might not be decolonisation and self-determination per se, but the vacuum created that allowed Leftist, Islamist and other ideologies to thrive and the failed states created. Isn't there enough evidence of it?
Ethiomonarchist

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Israel needs to decide whether it really is a Jewish state.  If it is, then it needs to withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza and be a Jewish state.  If it continues to slowly work towards anexing one or both of these territories as it seems to be doing with all these settlements, it will soon incorporate a very large and growing hostile Arab population that sooner or later will outnumber it's Jewish citizens.  Is that what Israel really wants?  

While it's true that de-colonization didn't result in the restoration of monarchies for the most part, I do harbor some bitterness on the process of decolonization as well since both the colonial powers and the emergent post-colonial powers acted in concert to prevent real monarchies from being restored (Rwanda, Burundi, Vietnam, etc).  I just don't agree that the U.N. should be criticized for doing away with an institution that is responsible for destroying legitimate native monarchy in vast areas of the world.

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Wessexman

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The issue with complete withdrawal from the occupied territories is security. Israel cannot be secure if these territories are in the hands of corrupt terrorist supporting regimes who don't even recognise Israel's right to exist. This is especially so in today's Near East. Otherwise, Israel could just withdraw and let the Palestinians stew in their own juices. This is why a peace process is needed. Israel has offered the Palestinians almost all they asked for multiple times, but the latter have always balked at making peace with the hated enemy. The current government has almost given up on the Palestinians, even Abbas, for this reason, and this is one reason they okay settlements.

DavidV

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Reply with quote  #9 
The problem is that the UN does the following things:

1) grant a platform to tyrannical regimes such as Iran, Sudan, Cuba, Zimbabwe, ad infinitum and others who use the stage to bash the West

2) do such things as lecture Japan and Australia on "hate speech", Sri Lanka on the conduct of its military in fighting terrorism (!), and now Israel

Israel has offered a reasonable settlement numerous times. I think the Arab World may resign itself to the reality it must coexist with Israel. In fact, the issue has even been pushed into the background by Syria, ISIS and Iran in regional politics.
Ethiomonarchist

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The U.N. does provide a platform for many objectionable regimes, but then the fact that these regimes exist and must be dealt with and communicated with necessitates a forum of this nature where states can communicate.  The U.N. also does a host of other very important things, especially in the realms of development, disaster relief, and global issues in connection with health and children.  There are many things about the U.N. that need to be revamped, restructured, improved, or changed completely, but I really don't think disbanding it all together is a good idea.

The Arab world at at large (contrary to their ridiculous public rhetoric) recognizes that Israel is going nowhere, and that they will have to live with it.  Neither the Israelis or the Palestinians are ever "reasonable" when it comes to resolving their issues, however, time and again it has been the Israelis who have been intransigent, particularly Benjamin Netanyahu.  Previously both Likud and Labour governments have made efforts (to various degrees) to reach a settlement.  Netanyahu, as I see it, has done everything he can to make sure a settlement never happens.  I seriously doubt that any resolution of this continual crisis will take place as long as this man remains in power in Israel.  Even moderate Arab states like Jordan recognize that this is the case and have basically given up on reasoning with him and simply hope that eventually the Israelis will elect someone who will talk to them rather than at them.


__________________
The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #11 
I am certainly not Netanyahu's biggest fan. I thought he was over-the-top in his opposition to the Iran nuclear deal, and his settlement policy is wrong and silly. Still, his lack of concern with the peace process seems to be reactive, based on the fact the Palestinians - even Fatah - simply aren't interested in peace under any reasonable conditions. In 2008 the Palestinians were offered almost all they asked for (98% of what they asked for is one figure given), and they refused. Before this they had refused similarly generous offers from the Israelis (Arafat did the same in 2000, for example). The reason is that the Palestinians leaders just can't face the reaction they would get from the Palestinian government for coming to terms with the hated enemy. Netanyahu came in just after the Palestinians again rejected a generous peace deal, and, not unreasonably, quickly realised there was little prospect for peace, though even he didn't give up completely.

I was watching PBS Newshour the other day, and I thought David Brooks's comments on the issue, and on the Obama and Trump administrations Israel policies were spot on:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/brooks-corn-obamas-active-final-weeks-trump-putin-bromance/
Quote:

DAVID BROOKS: Now we disagree.

I think it’s a completely indefensible policy. Settlements are an obstacle to peace and to a two-state solution. There’s no question about that. They are about the fifth or sixth most important obstacle right now.

The fact that there could be an ISIS West Bank, the fact that the Palestinian government in Gaza doesn’t even acknowledge Israel’s right to exist, the fact of constant terror, delegitimization campaigns in the Palestinian schools, these are all much bigger facts.

And for the Obama administration to focus on this one fact, almost, not to the expense, but to diminish some of the others which are much more important, is to cast all the blame on Israel and to take the U.N. policy toward Israel, which has been longstanding, and sort of surrender to it.

Netanyahu, Bibi Netanyahu, froze the settlements and offered to go toward a two-state solution. The Palestinians didn’t take him up on it. Historically, we have had a series of these offers. And the settlements themselves are not the keystone here.

And it seems to me myopic and bizarre that at the last moment, the Obama administration would surrender the whole balanced array of policies that are obstacles to peace and focus on the one that is most detrimental to Israel....

....

DAVID BROOKS: Well, that just shows how polarized the whole situation has become, because the Obama administration has focused the onus on Israel and the settlements.

And then the Trump potential administration apparently is pro-settlement, and almost against a two-state solution. So we have got two polar opposite Israel policies, which really break what had been a pretty decent bipartisan consensus that we have got to have a two-state solution, we sort of know what the border is going to look like, we sort of know what East Jerusalem is going to look like.

And no administration has ever said, as the Obama administration sort of implied, that Israel wouldn’t have access to the Western Wall, to the East Jerusalem. And that was also in the resolution. And all administrations have not really gone on the U.N. train.

And so what we’re seeing is a complete bifurcation to two wrong Israeli policies.



All the main reasons for the stalling of the peace process he (correctly) mentions are the responsibility of the Palestinians.
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #12 
Speaking of Netanyahu, he's facing a rather serious criminal probe.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/01/02/police-grill-benjamin-netanyahu-on-corruption-charges.html

__________________
The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
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