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head_statue

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jovan66102
Quote:
Originally Posted by head_statue
muslim slavs (bosnian muslims, who are slavs despite serb attempts to label them as "turks" )
<br /><br />No Serb seriously believes that the so called 'Bosniaks' are Turks. We are quite aware that they are traitorous, backstabbing slime who sold out their people to the jihadists while the rest of our people stood as Guardians at the Gates, protecting Europe from the barbarian hordes.


I wouldnt call them traitorous if you are referring to their religion. The medieval bosnian kingdom was home to a heretical gnostic sect of christianity, the Bosnian Church, which had links to bogomilism. The bosnian slavs were first pagans, then gnostics, and after the ottoman conquest, they converted to islam, since no traces of the bosnian church are left today.

Seeing that gnosticism is heretical to both orthodox and catholics, you can't call bosnian muslims traitors for converting out of christianity.

There was a croatian kingdom, a serb kingdom, and a bosnian kingdom during medieval times, although they did not nessecarily exist at the same time. Since bosnia was home to the gnostic bosnian church, it doesnt take a genius to figure out where bosnian muslims came from. They weren't a bunch of croats or serbs who suddenly decided to convert to islam when the ottomans came.
patrickh42

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Reply with quote  #17 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
It was the creation of an artificial state with no historical basis whatsoever in violation of international law. I'm with Jovan and with the Serbs on this one. I also think that Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Nagorno-Karabakh have a far more legitimate basis for statehood than Kosovo ever did or ever will have.


In what way are Abhkazia, South Ossetia and Nagorno-Karabakh any more legitimate then Kosovo? I see you buy into Putin's propaganda.

KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #18 
Didn't the International Court of Justice rule that Kosovo's declaration of independence was not a violation of international law?

Also, the Bosniaks are a legitimate ethnic group.
Spongie555

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickh42

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
It was the creation of an artificial state with no historical basis whatsoever in violation of international law. I'm with Jovan and with the Serbs on this one. I also think that Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Nagorno-Karabakh have a far more legitimate basis for statehood than Kosovo ever did or ever will have.


In what way are Abhkazia, South Ossetia and Nagorno-Karabakh any more legitimate then Kosovo? I see you buy into Putin's propaganda.



I don't know if South Ossetia and Nagorno-Karabakh would be legitimate but Abkhazia used to be Principality till 1866 so Abkhazia has historical precedent.  


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"Throughout my reign I will never rule you as a King. I will protect you as a parent, care for you as a brother and serve you as a son. I shall give you everything and keep nothing; I shall live such a life as a good human being that you may find it worthy to serve as an example for your children; I have no personal goals other than to fulfill your hopes and aspirations. I shall always serve you, day and night, in the spirit of kindness, justice and equality."

- His Majesty King Jigme Khesar Namgyel Wangchuck Coronation Address to the Nation, 6 November 2008
head_statue

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Reply with quote  #20 
From "Kosovo: in the heart of the powder keg" by Robert Elsie, Page 333, also found in "Gathering clouds: the roots of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo and Macedonia : early twentieth-century documents" also by Robert Elsie, Page 13

king peter I of serbia wrote the following in a declaration:

Quote:
The Turkish governments showed no interest in their duties towards their citizens and turned a deaf ear to all complaints and suggestions. Things got so far out of hand that no one was satisfied with the situation in Turkey in Europe. It became unbearable for the Serbs, the Greeks and for the Albanians, too. By the grace of God, I have therefore ordered my brave army to join in the Holy War to free our brethren and to ensure a better future. In Old Serbia, my army will meet not only upon Christian Serbs, but also upon Moslem Serbs, who are equally dear to us, and in addition to them, upon Christian and Moslem Albanians with whom our people have shared joy and sorrow for thirteen centuries now. To all of them we bring freedom, brotherhood and equality.
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongie555
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickh42

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
It was the creation of an artificial state with no historical basis whatsoever in violation of international law. I'm with Jovan and with the Serbs on this one. I also think that Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Nagorno-Karabakh have a far more legitimate basis for statehood than Kosovo ever did or ever will have.


In what way are Abhkazia, South Ossetia and Nagorno-Karabakh any more legitimate then Kosovo? I see you buy into Putin's propaganda.



I don't know if South Ossetia and Nagorno-Karabakh would be legitimate but Abkhazia used to be Principality till 1866 so Abkhazia has historical precedent.  



Well, Ossetians are a distinct ethnicity in their own right and they do have a history of statehood (as do most Caucasus peoples, it has to be said). Nagorno-Karabakh was for centuries one of the only vestiges of Armenian statehood and self-government. It is historically Armenian territory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by head_statue
From "Kosovo: in the heart of the powder keg" by Robert Elsie, Page 333, also found in "Gathering clouds: the roots of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo and Macedonia : early twentieth-century documents" also by Robert Elsie, Page 13 king peter I of serbia wrote the following in a declaration:
Quote:
The Turkish governments showed no interest in their duties towards their citizens and turned a deaf ear to all complaints and suggestions. Things got so far out of hand that no one was satisfied with the situation in Turkey in Europe. It became unbearable for the Serbs, the Greeks and for the Albanians, too. By the grace of God, I have therefore ordered my brave army to join in the Holy War to free our brethren and to ensure a better future. In Old Serbia, my army will meet not only upon Christian Serbs, but also upon Moslem Serbs, who are equally dear to us, and in addition to them, upon Christian and Moslem Albanians with whom our people have shared joy and sorrow for thirteen centuries now. To all of them we bring freedom, brotherhood and equality.


That's an interesting point. Kosovo is historic Serbian territory and certainly nobody missed Ottoman rule in the region. Indeed, ethnicaly Slav Muslims have also borne the brunt of persecution since the NATO bombing. In the event the Serbian and Albanian monarchies are restored, how would you resolve the Kosovo situation?
head_statue

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongie555
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickh42
<p>
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
It was the creation of an artificial state with no historical basis whatsoever in violation of international law. I'm with Jovan and with the Serbs on this one. I also think that Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Nagorno-Karabakh have a far more legitimate basis for statehood than Kosovo ever did or ever will have.
</p><p><br />In what way are Abhkazia, South Ossetia and Nagorno-Karabakh any more legitimate then Kosovo? I see you buy into Putin's propaganda.</p>
<br /><br />I don't know if South Ossetia and Nagorno-Karabakh would be legitimate but Abkhazia used to be Principality till 1866 so Abkhazia has historical precedent.  <br /><br />
<br /><br />Well, Ossetians are a distinct ethnicity in their own right and they do have a history of statehood (as do most Caucasus peoples, it has to be said). Nagorno-Karabakh was for centuries one of the only vestiges of Armenian statehood and self-government. It is historically Armenian territory.<br /><br />
Quote:
Originally Posted by head_statue
From "Kosovo: in the heart of the powder keg" by Robert Elsie, Page 333, also found in "Gathering clouds: the roots of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo and Macedonia : early twentieth-century documents" also by Robert Elsie, Page 13 king peter I of serbia wrote the following in a declaration:
Quote:
The Turkish governments showed no interest in their duties towards their citizens and turned a deaf ear to all complaints and suggestions. Things got so far out of hand that no one was satisfied with the situation in Turkey in Europe. It became unbearable for the Serbs, the Greeks and for the Albanians, too. By the grace of God, I have therefore ordered my brave army to join in the Holy War to free our brethren and to ensure a better future. In Old Serbia, my army will meet not only upon Christian Serbs, but also upon Moslem Serbs, who are equally dear to us, and in addition to them, upon Christian and Moslem Albanians with whom our people have shared joy and sorrow for thirteen centuries now. To all of them we bring freedom, brotherhood and equality.
<br /><br />That's an interesting point. Kosovo is historic Serbian territory and certainly nobody missed Ottoman rule in the region. Indeed, ethnicaly Slav Muslims have also borne the brunt of persecution since the NATO bombing. In the event the Serbian and Albanian monarchies are restored, how would you resolve the Kosovo situation?


I favor a federal monarchy with kosovo as an autonomous republic in a kingdom of serbia.
Sujit

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by head_statue
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongie555
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickh42
<p>
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
It was the creation of an artificial state with no historical basis whatsoever in violation of international law. I'm with Jovan and with the Serbs on this one. I also think that Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Nagorno-Karabakh have a far more legitimate basis for statehood than Kosovo ever did or ever will have.
</p><p><br />In what way are Abhkazia, South Ossetia and Nagorno-Karabakh any more legitimate then Kosovo? I see you buy into Putin's propaganda.</p>
<br /><br />I don't know if South Ossetia and Nagorno-Karabakh would be legitimate but Abkhazia used to be Principality till 1866 so Abkhazia has historical precedent.  <br /><br />
<br /><br />Well, Ossetians are a distinct ethnicity in their own right and they do have a history of statehood (as do most Caucasus peoples, it has to be said). Nagorno-Karabakh was for centuries one of the only vestiges of Armenian statehood and self-government. It is historically Armenian territory.<br /><br />
Quote:
Originally Posted by head_statue
From "Kosovo: in the heart of the powder keg" by Robert Elsie, Page 333, also found in "Gathering clouds: the roots of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo and Macedonia : early twentieth-century documents" also by Robert Elsie, Page 13 king peter I of serbia wrote the following in a declaration:
Quote:
The Turkish governments showed no interest in their duties towards their citizens and turned a deaf ear to all complaints and suggestions. Things got so far out of hand that no one was satisfied with the situation in Turkey in Europe. It became unbearable for the Serbs, the Greeks and for the Albanians, too. By the grace of God, I have therefore ordered my brave army to join in the Holy War to free our brethren and to ensure a better future. In Old Serbia, my army will meet not only upon Christian Serbs, but also upon Moslem Serbs, who are equally dear to us, and in addition to them, upon Christian and Moslem Albanians with whom our people have shared joy and sorrow for thirteen centuries now. To all of them we bring freedom, brotherhood and equality.
<br /><br />That's an interesting point. Kosovo is historic Serbian territory and certainly nobody missed Ottoman rule in the region. Indeed, ethnicaly Slav Muslims have also borne the brunt of persecution since the NATO bombing. In the event the Serbian and Albanian monarchies are restored, how would you resolve the Kosovo situation?
I favor a federal monarchy with kosovo as an autonomous republic in a kingdom of serbia.


That wold have been a neat and preferable way to solve the problem.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by head_statue
Quote:
Originally Posted by jovan66102
Quote:
Originally Posted by head_statue
muslim slavs (bosnian muslims, who are slavs despite serb attempts to label them as "turks" )
<br /><br />No Serb seriously believes that the so called 'Bosniaks' are Turks. We are quite aware that they are traitorous, backstabbing slime who sold out their people to the jihadists while the rest of our people stood as Guardians at the Gates, protecting Europe from the barbarian hordes.
I wouldnt call them traitorous if you are referring to their religion. The medieval bosnian kingdom was home to a heretical gnostic sect of christianity, the Bosnian Church, which had links to bogomilism. The bosnian slavs were first pagans, then gnostics, and after the ottoman conquest, they converted to islam, since no traces of the bosnian church are left today. Seeing that gnosticism is heretical to both orthodox and catholics, you can't call bosnian muslims traitors for converting out of christianity. There was a croatian kingdom, a serb kingdom, and a bosnian kingdom during medieval times, although they did not nessecarily exist at the same time. Since bosnia was home to the gnostic bosnian church, it doesnt take a genius to figure out where bosnian muslims came from. They weren't a bunch of croats or serbs who suddenly decided to convert to islam when the ottomans came.


You will note that I did not refer to their religion. I don't give a damn if they were Bogomils, Orthodox, Catholic, Muslim or Pagan. The fact is that they were, and are, ethnically and linguistically Serbs who turned traitor to their people and stabbed us in the back.

__________________
'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchMonarchist
Jovan, I don't like what happened to Kosovo either, but surely the Muslims who live at the Balkan today can't be blamed for what their ancestors did so many centuries ago? 


I do not believe in collective, ancestral guilt. I don't need to. I don't hold the Kosovars and Bosniaks responsible for the sins of their forefathers. I hold them responsible for their treason today, for the killings, tortures, rapes and destruction of Serbian homes and churches that are going on today, under the protection of NATO troops. I look forward to the day when NATO gets tired and withdraws. Then we will see who Kosovo belongs to!

__________________
'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #26 
Jovan, did you just call for the elimination of the Kosovar Albanians and Bosniaks? If you did, that is incitement to genocide, which last I checked is a crime against humanity. Monarchists ought not to behave like Hitler, Stalin, or Mao.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYMonarchist
Jovan, did you just call for the elimination of the Kosovar Albanians and Bosniaks? If you did, that is incitement to genocide, which last I checked is a crime against humanity. Monarchists ought not to behave like Hitler, Stalin, or Mao.


No I did not, you little sh*t! You've tried your leftist bullsh*t before, accusing me of calling for genocide. It didn't fly then and it doesn't fly now, you left wing son of a b*tch!

***ETA*** I have to ask, KYM, if you are capable of understanding plain English? I have never called for the genocide of the Kosovars and Bosniaks. Your attempt at equating me with Hitler, Stalin and Mao is despicable, but quite typical of the left wing that you personify so well.

To be clear, I do not accept the left wing concept of 'crimes against humanity', a concept invented to strip sovereign states of the power to prosecute crimes in favour of an international, one world government court. However, if I did accept it, the concerted efforts of the Kosovars to kill or drive out all the Serbs in Kosovo would rank high on my list of 'crimes against humanity'.



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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #28 
Here we go again...

There is no basis for a "country" like Kosovo to exist. It is not based on a distinct ethnic group and culture nor does it have an prior history of statehood. Abkhazia meets these requirements, South Ossetia meets these requirements, Nagorno-Karabakh is ancient Armenian land (the Armenian nobility had some self-rule under Persian domination in present-day Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh). Kosovo is ancient Serbian land and home of important religious sites.

Neither side was squeaky clean in this conflict, or in the whole of the Yugoslav Wars. But the roots of this go back to 1914 and the desires of various parties to avenge events dating back to that. Yugoslavia of course should never have been created.
DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #29 
Jovan certainly didn't call for genocide. I don't think, however, that any attitude of revenge would be a good thing if Kosovo would ever become a part of Serbia again. Serbia certainly contributed to the conflict by taking away the autonomy of the region. 
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #30 
It's precisely the attitude of revenge that led to this whole mess in the first place. They wanted to avenge 1914-18 and 1941-45, and did so with the horrors of 1991-95 and then Kosovo.

For us Christians and monarchists, it's a difficult situation to look at because we support the Habsburgs, we support restorations in Serbia, Montenegro and Albania.
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