Monarchy Forum
Register Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 6 of 12     «   Prev   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   Next   »
AaronTraas

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 429
Reply with quote  #76 
Quote:
Originally Posted by royalcello
I'm sorry, but after Paul VI and John Paul II whose pontificates we have had plenty of time to digest I think traditionalists cannot be expected to have any more patience, though I respect Aaron's decision.


Well, as Catholics, that's what we do need to do. Impatient or not, we aren't getting a new pope on our schedule. I mean, I guess we could leave the Church (though I think most trads would think that a mortal sin), or decide to go sedevacantist (though, if you thought Paul VI and JPII, I don't see how Francis suddenly is invalid). But for those of us who are sticking around, I just don't see how publicly complaining will help anything. 

After Holy Week is done with, I'm actually going to try and see if the ICRSP could organize a spiritual bouquet for our Holy Father for the feast of St. Francis (October 12th). If he is unfit for the papacy, more the reason to give him our prayers! 

I understand and appreciate your point of view completely, Theodore. I'm not going to pretend to be happy about the situation. I assume you share much of my opinions, both good and bad, of the Pope Emeritus as well. I am grateful for everything he did for us, despite his failings. Maybe God has great plans for Francis as well. And a contact of mine who'd qualify as a Vatican insider has assured me that though Francis has no love whatsoever for the Extraordinary Form and the tradition expressed through it, he's unlikely to be a vocal opponent of it either.
royalcello

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 6,774
Reply with quote  #77 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronTraas
I assume you share much of my opinions, both good and bad, of the Pope Emeritus as well. I am grateful for everything he did for us, despite his failings.

 

Yes absolutely. To be honest, good musical taste goes a long way with me, and I liked Benedict's general style and personality, which is why from 2007 to 2013 I felt more aligned (when considering the RCC) with moderate diocesan trads and "brick by brick" "reform of the reform" types than with SSPX, independent or sedevacantist "rad trads."  Now I have a feeling I'm likely to be once again more sympathetic to "rad trad" commentary (as I was before my falling out with the SSPX in 2007, which happened to roughly coincide with Summorum Pontificum). I'm not sure this makes a lot of sense but there it is.

About sedevacantists, while it's true that if P6 and JP2 were valid popes Francis is as well, I don't think it's impossible that Francis could push some trads, perhaps especially young trads who don't remember P6 or much of JP2, who had been resisting sedevacantism "over the edge" into concluding that the sedevacantists have been right all along.

Ethiomonarchist

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 5,028
Reply with quote  #78 
Quote:
...while it's true that if P6 and JP2 were valid popes Francis is as well,...


Although his reign was so brief, there was a JP1 as well.  Here he is in the sedia gestatoria, the last time it was ever used.  I liked his brand of humility...


__________________
The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Ethiomonarchist

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 5,028
Reply with quote  #79 
Pope John Paul I dispensed with the Papal Tiara and was not crowned with it.  However, when he initially resisted using the sedia gestatoria at his instalation, he was prevailed upon and humbly submitted himself to the tradition.  Here is another picture of the late pontiff in the sedia, this was the first time he used it, at his instalation.


__________________
The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
AaronTraas

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 429
Reply with quote  #80 
Quote:
Originally Posted by royalcello
About sedevacantists, while it's true that if P6 and JP2 were valid popes Francis is as well, I don't think it's impossible that Francis could push some trads, perhaps especially young trads who don't remember P6 or much of JP2, who had been resisting sedevacantism "over the edge" into concluding that the sedevacantists have been right all along.


That is a valid point about the young trads. Depressing, but valid.
AaronTraas

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 429
Reply with quote  #81 
Man, I just realized that I had no idea what JPI looked like. I know the face of every pope from Pius X on, but not JPI. Thanks for the pictures.
VivatReginaScottorum

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 291
Reply with quote  #82 
Quote:
Originally Posted by royalcello
I'm sorry, but after Paul VI and John Paul II whose disastrous pontificates we have had plenty of time to digest I think traditionalists cannot be expected to have any more patience, though I respect Aaron's decision.

Once again, why are non-Catholics like me who are repelled by modernism, egalitarianism, and the diminishing of traditional pageantry less important than non-Catholics who are supposedly put off by traditional pageantry?

I don't want the Church to be "relevant" to the modern world. I hate the modern world. It's full of republics and stupid ideologies and ugly music and ugly buildings. If the modern secular world doesn't hate the Church, the Church is doing something wrong.

I'm an Anglican, not a Roman Catholic, largely because of my love of Anglican choral music and the British monarchy, and also because I dislike contemporary "conservative" RC single-issue politics and refuse to be associated with anti-gay polemics. But I don't have much respect for contemporary Anglican leaders either. Sometimes it feels like there is nowhere for an anti-egalitarian cultural traditionalist to turn, and that's why people like my Maurrasian French friend (formerly "GrumpyTroll"), once a devout SSPX traditional Catholic, reach the conclusion they do. Even at my own mostly enviable Episcopal parish, though it's still I think preferable to any Roman Catholic parish in Dallas, I have to coexist with practices (primarily noisy alternative "contemporary" services and the display of the US flag in the chancel) contrary to my beliefs. It's grating, though today I suppose one should focus on Good Friday.


I apologise for going a bit off topic here, but I certainly sympathize with your distaste for the modern world. Have you ever looked into Orthodox Christianity? Just a thought.


__________________
That which concerns the mystery of the King's power is not lawful to be disputed; for that is to wade into the weakness of Princes, and to take away the mystical reverence that belongs unto them that sit in the throne of God. - James VI and I of England, Scotland and Ireland
royalcello

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 6,774
Reply with quote  #83 

I have a lot of respect for Orthodox Christianity; I love the Romanovs and many of my monarchist friends are Orthodox, but at the end of the day I'm a Westerner to the core. I could never separate myself from elements of Western ecclesiastical patrimony such as Latin polyphony, Anglican choral evensong, or organ music, or more importantly the whole Western liturgical sensibility of which such things are manifestations. And while I am aware of Western Rite Orthodoxy it is really too small to nourish that patrimony in its fullness, and does not seem to be fully accepted in Orthodoxy.

 

It is true that Orthodoxy does seem to a large extent to have resisted the capitulation to political correctness and egalitarianism that has infected the major Western liturgical churches. I think we can all be confident that hell will freeze over before the Orthodox "ordain" women, and God bless them for that. On the other hand I do find it disappointing that the Russian Orthodox Church is so close to Putin (who has never repudiated the USSR and once explicitly rejected the possibility of restoring the monarchy) and that the Orthodox Churches generally have not done more to promote the restorations of monarchies in their countries.  (I think Georgia may be an honorable exception to this.) Certainly it is an abomination that there has not been an [Oriental or Eastern, since Ethiopia and Greece fell in the same year] Orthodox sovereign anywhere in the world since 1974, whereas we still have six Protestant (one of whom reigns in sixteen different realms) and six (besides the Pope) Catholic sovereigns.  (Tonga and Lesotho are the two non-European Christian monarchies.)

HRH_Jonathan

Registered:
Posts: 18
Reply with quote  #84 

Quote:
Once again, why are non-Catholics like me who are repelled by modernism, egalitarianism, and the diminishing of traditional pageantry less important than non-Catholics who are supposedly put off by traditional pageantry?

It's not that you're less important, it's that (sad to say) there's fewer of you. The vast majority of people are modern in their sensibilities, and those that aren't are often Catholic already. It's a terrible thing, but traditionalists are the minority for now. Of course, there are still things like the FSSP for us to join.

 

Quote:
I don't want the Church to be "relevant" to the modern world. I hate the modern world. It's full of republics and stupid ideologies and ugly music and ugly buildings. If the modern secular world doesn't hate the Church, the Church is doing something wrong.

I hate the modern world, too. But there are things more important than beautiful music and buildings, such as the saving of souls. People who have been indoctrinated to believe that the Church is backwards and stupid are never going to look at her actual teachings twice, whereas those who simply think her to be a strange religion might do some deeper investigation and come over to our side. Then, when that's over with, we can work on de-modernizing them. Prevailing cultural tides don't change overnight, sadly.

Quote:
Sometimes it feels like there is nowhere for an anti-egalitarian cultural traditionalist to turn...

I go to an FSSP Catholic parish, and it sure does the trick for me. Such parishs are far too rare, but they exist. Furthermore, the Church has never stopped being anti-egalitarian and culturally traditionalist; some of her followers have, that's all.

__________________
Est parma veritas, ensis justitas, via libertas noster.
http://thekingdomofedan.webs.com/
royalcello

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 6,774
Reply with quote  #85 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_Jonathan
People who have been indoctrinated to believe that the Church is backwards and stupid are never going to look at her actual teachings twice

I thought that was my point.    Getting rid of papal pageantry and failing to restore dignity & beauty to the liturgy is not going to change that. People who are totally committed to feminism, contraception, abortion, gay marriage, etc., and think that the word "medieval" is an insult couldn't care less if the liturgy is austere or ornate or if the pope sits on a white chair or a golden throne. (Our own Peter might be a rare exception to this, but if so I think he'd be on my side.)

There is an FSSP parish in Dallas but I get the distinct impression that it would not be a welcoming place for either monarchists or advocates of high standards in sacred music.  St John Cantius in Chicago, now that's the sort of Catholic parish I can imagine myself being content at. But what's more important is that as long as this Vatican II crisis continues, I'm just not convinced that the "One True Church" would or could do this to itself--now with no end in sight. 

 

 

Peter

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 6,651
Reply with quote  #86 
I am fully committed to feminism, contraception, legal abortion and gay marriage, though I'm not sure about the etc. I don't however think that the word 'medieval' is an insult, far from it, and I see little point in liturgical worship which is not ceremonious and beautiful. I have by the way looked at the Church's teachings not twice but many times. My unfavourable opinion is based not on assumption but knowledge. Such is possible, and Jonathan should possibly not be so eager to encourage everyone to take a better look.
HRH_Jonathan

Registered:
Posts: 18
Reply with quote  #87 
Quote:
Getting rid of papal pageantry and failing to restore dignity & beauty to the liturgy is not going to change that.

Not by itself, but that is just a part of his larger show of getting of the pedestal (non-existent as it may be) and doing something good. I can easily see how wearing a bare cassock, washing women's feet as part of the old ceremony, et cetera could challenge the assumptions made by certain liberals and protestants when it comes to Catholic doctrine. The effectiveness of the move remains to be seen, but the logic is there.
A parish not being welcoming for monarchists is just part of living in America, it seems to me. The concept of an FSSP parish with low standards of music shocks me; I didn't think there could be such a thing. If that's what you're stuck with, then I can almost understand your dilemma.
The Vatican II issue is actually much more minor than the problems experienced in the past with the Borgias, the Arians, and so on. I understand your concern, though, and don't expect to see any real success from internet proselytizing; and I agree that the liturgy must be improved back to the way it was, at least. I just disagree that Pope Francis is a disaster.

Peter, if you were already fully committed to those things when you looked into the Church's teachings, then of course you disagree.

__________________
Est parma veritas, ensis justitas, via libertas noster.
http://thekingdomofedan.webs.com/
royalcello

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 6,774
Reply with quote  #88 

I disagree with the constant trashing of the Renaissance popes and would gladly take an Alexander VI over a Paul VI any day.

 

At least the Borgias didn't try to invent a new religion. The alleged sins of popes like Alexander VI actually had very little effect on the religious lives of Catholics far from Rome. The mass was the same, the sacraments were the same. The Church supported beautiful art, architecture, and music. None of that can be said of the modern popes.

HRH_Jonathan

Registered:
Posts: 18
Reply with quote  #89 
Alexander VI wasn't such a bad guy, but the fact is that he was invalidly elected; unlike Paul VI.

I disagree with the constant trashing of Paul VI. He did order the Vatican II liturgical reforms, but had little control over their results, and even less knowledge of the reductions in grandeur they were instituting. According to one story, when he discovered that red vestments were no longer used on Pentecost because of his reforms, he wept.

__________________
Est parma veritas, ensis justitas, via libertas noster.
http://thekingdomofedan.webs.com/
Peter

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 6,651
Reply with quote  #90 
Actually my main problem with Catholic teachings is how very theologically unsound they are. Their stances on a number of moral issues lack a firm foundation in theology, morals, or reason, but the lack of theological or reasoned foundation extends to many non-moral teachings as well. My point is that I do not just look at the teachings and assume they are wrong, I look at them and see why they are. Not because they are not in accord with modern ideas, but because they are not rational on their own terms. Which are the only fair terms by which to judge them.
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation: