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Anti_Collegial

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Reply with quote  #61 
Ethiomonarchist,

This claim does not involve an unnamed bishop, rather a prominent one that took it upon himself to verify the statement

Bishop Gregory Venables told the BBC the published account of Cardinal Bergoglio's remarks to him was correct. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21815148)

That's primary testimony from a participant in the discussion, not hearsay.

Thank both you and HRH Jonathan for your beautiful posts.  It is not for us to reject a sovereign for not living up to our expectations, we should be striving to meet his expectations as clearly he has been blessed by God and we are entrusted to him.







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royalcello

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Reply with quote  #62 

While I do agree that monarchists should be very cautious about any criticism of contemporary monarchs, I don't believe that necessarily applies to the Papacy, especially for non-Catholic monarchists who may not even be inclined to regard the Pope as a "monarch" (though he is) at all. The Pope is not a constitutional figurehead whose main function is to act as a symbol of national unity avoiding divisive controversial issues.  Nor is his office hereditary. He may not have chosen to be Pope, but as priest and bishop he did choose to pursue a path which might lead to the office, unlike hereditary monarchs. He is the elected leader with real, actual power of one of the world's largest religions who can and does make controversial decisions.  So his role is fundamentally different from that of someone like Queen Elizabeth II and commentary on it, including by monarchists, will differ accordingly. A second key distinction is that Catholics are supposed to believe that their Church and its Papacy will endure until the end of time no matter what. So there is really no excuse for a Pope abandoning tradition in order to try to appease the modern world. Whereas secular monarchs, especially in the modern age, have no such guarantee of divine protection so it is easier to understand them making various compromises with modernity.

 

Overall, I disliked John Paul II, liked and admired Benedict XVI (though his abdication disappointed me, all the more so now), and so far am not impressed with Francis. I see no reason not to say so.

 

(Please also see my previous post.)

 

 

Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #63 
Apparently Pope Francis has broken yet another tradition.  When he carried out the Washing of the Feet at the youth prison outside Rome today, he also included women among those whose feet were washed.  Also, two of those whose feet were washed were Muslims.

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-washes-feet-young-detainees-ritual-173757747.html;_ylt=A2KJ2Ugai1RR0xkAxSjQtDMD

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-urges-catholic-priests-help-poor-shun-careerism-112315330.html;_ylt=A2KJ2Ugai1RR0xkAwyjQtDMD

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Anti_Collegial

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Reply with quote  #64 
Pope Francis is clearly 'trolling' [someone/something] at this point. Kto kovo?

Pope Francis is making what amounts to a sweeping overture towards Islam Inc. This could very possibly be the wedge that leaves the salafi terrorist ideology out in the cold to die. Recently al-Qaeda released a two hour anti-Catholic video entitled "Truth has Arrived And Falsehood has Perished". Now I'd hate to see the Church be forced to declare a crusade in our degenerate democratic age against these terrorists but perhaps She can force their hand and derive the same benefit as if She did. Presumably most Catholics to say nothing of monarchist sympathizers would love to watch the radicals tie their tongue in knots against moderate muslim leaders and the people's pope.

tl;dr The results of this outreach will be some successful evangelization or it will provoke Muslims, or both.

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jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #65 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethiomonarchist
Apparently Pope Francis has broken yet another tradition.  When he carried out the Washing of the Feet at the youth prison outside Rome today, he also included women among those whose feet were washed.  Also, two of those whose feet were washed were Muslims.

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-washes-feet-young-detainees-ritual-173757747.html;_ylt=A2KJ2Ugai1RR0xkAxSjQtDMD

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-urges-catholic-priests-help-poor-shun-careerism-112315330.html;_ylt=A2KJ2Ugai1RR0xkAwyjQtDMD


And in doing so, violated not only the centuries old Tradition of the Church but specific legislation governing the Foot Washing:

Quote:
"The washing of the feet of chosen men which, according to tradition, is performed on this day, represents the service and charity of Christ, who came ‘not to be served, but to serve’ (Matt XX: 28)...this tradition should be maintained, and its proper significance explained.” 
 
-Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments document, "Paschales Solemnitatis", 1988 

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #66 
It is a jarring change.  In the Ethiopian Orthodox Church only men have the feet washed.  Women may approach and have hands washed, but it is not considered a part of the actual ceremony.  The washing of the feet of Muslims perplexes me.
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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #67 

Jovan and Theodore,

I've defended any of the lower ceremony stuff in the exercise of his duties, (the new chair, etc), only in his personal accommodations and interactions.  I joined with others in missing the crown.  But goodness, living in smaller quarters doesn't degrade the grandeur of the service.  I'd not like the Queen in Council housing, but I don't like the Queen no longer having a Royal Yacht, or opening the Palaces to 'public gawking' either.

I'm more bothered by the washing of the ladies' feet, than that of the infidels.  Our Lord washed Judas' feet.  But again, this isn't some new trick the Pope is up to, he did the same things as Bishop.  If it were really a violation of the Dogmatic teaching to do so, how on earth did he get elected by the Cardinals as Bishop of Rome? 


I for one will refrain from judging the 'intentions of his heart', and stick to lamenting the absent throne, crown, and litter-chair.


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Tolgron

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Reply with quote  #68 
Are the feet of a woman any different to the feet of a man? And did not our Lord share water with a Samaritan woman at the well?
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #69 
To both the Baron and Tolgron, the Law of the Church is clear. Only the feet of men are to be washed on Holy Thursday. As the Supreme Legislator, Pope Francis can change that law. He chose not to do so, but to simply disobey it. This is in continuity with his 'humble' disobedience to the law as a Cardinal and will only encourage those priests who want to disobey the law despite their lawful Ordinaries instructions. As a Catholic (I do not say 'Traditionalist' just 'Catholic') I am horrified at the proud, false 'humility', and the absolute disregard of the law and Tradition of the Church expressed by Pope Francis. May God have mercy on the Catholic Church in the Papacy of this man!
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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Anti_Collegial

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Reply with quote  #70 
In memory of those lost to the worst materialist ideologies.

http://thedialog.org/?p=11164

Quote:
Pope recognizes martyrs from Soviet, Nazi regimes

By Francis X Rocca
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY — An Italian priest who died in a Nazi concentration camp and two victims of Soviet-bloc regimes during the Cold War were among those recognized as martyrs by Pope Francis March 27.

According to a statement released by the Vatican March 28, the pope authorized decrees stating that Franciscan Father Giuseppe Girotti, an opponent of Italy’s fascist government who died at Dachau in 1945, was killed “in hatred of the faith.”

Pope Francis likewise recognized the martyrdom of Romanian Father Vladimir Ghika and Hungarian Salesian Brother Stephen Sandor, who were killed by their country’s communist regimes, in 1954 and 1953, respectively.

The decrees prepare the way for the martyrs’ beatification, probably later this year.

Pope Francis authorized the Congregation for Saints’ Causes to promulgate equivalent decrees for Rolando Rivi, an Italian seminarian killed by communist partisans in 1945, during the last days of World War II; and for 58 persons, including the bishop of Jaen, killed between 1936 and 1938 during the Spanish Civil War.

The church normally requires a miracle to be attributed to the intercession of a deceased Catholic before he or she may be beatified, but that requirement does not apply to recognized martyrs. A miracle is required before any blessed may be canonized.



Nazi and Soviet scum, once again the body of Christ suffered between two thieves.

Nazism shouldn't be confused with popular nationalistic anti-communist action or integralism.

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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #71 

Jovan,

Wouldn't it be that the Pope himself granted a dispensation for the washing of the feet of the women in this case?  It isn't all that rare dispensation after all.

I join you in prayer for the Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome, and for the man who sits in the Chair.

 

Tologon,

There is absolutely no evidence in Scripture that He shared any water with the woman.  She left her pitcher, and He didn't have one.  The reasons for concern with the washing of the feet of women are many.  Its something which requires a dispensation before doing is just the surface one.  I read the sermon (OK, the English translation) which accompanied the act, and I am pleased to say that the words match the intent of the act in the Gospels. 

If only we all actually acted on the 'be the servant of all'......


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AaronTraas

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Reply with quote  #72 
Though I share many of the opinions expressed in this thread, I'm going to attempt to refrain from complaining. It does none of us any good. As a monarchist, I have to accept that I'll occasionally get a bad monarch, and this is no different. We Catholics survived Paul VI and JPII. This papacy won't be nearly as long as JPII's. We'll get through it. 

In fact, I think for trads in particular, it would be wise to keep our complaints to ourselves. "Conservative" Catholics already think of us as cranky at best, and I can't see any scenario where Pope Francis doesn't agree. So for those of us enjoying our little bunkers like the ICRSP and FSSP, it'd be best to keep our heads down for this papacy. No one wants to provoke him into overturning Summorum Pontificum. We should make it clear that we're fasting and praying for him. We can't change the pope, and we can't even effect the next conclave, except by supernatural means.
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #73 
Quote:
This claim does not involve an unnamed bishop, rather a prominent one that took it upon himself to verify the statement

Bishop Gregory Venables told the BBC the published account of Cardinal Bergoglio's remarks to him was correct. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21815148)

That's primary testimony from a participant in the discussion, not hearsay


I stand corrected.

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
HRH_Jonathan

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Reply with quote  #74 
royalcello:
Quote:
The Pope is not a constitutional figurehead whose main function is to act as a symbol of national unity avoiding divisive controversial issues.  Nor is his office hereditary. He may not have chosen to be Pope, but as priest and bishop he did choose to pursue a path which might lead to the office, unlike hereditary monarchs. He is the elected leader with real, actual power of one of the world's largest religions who can and does make controversial decisions.  So his role is fundamentally different from that of someone like Queen Elizabeth II and commentary on it, including by monarchists, will differ accordingly.

I think you're missing my point. I would actually be more judgemental of figurehead leaders than I am of ones with actual power. You and I may think we know better ways for rulers to act, but we probably don't. Those with power may not be smarter than us, may not be wiser than us, and may not be more talented than us; but they do have access to far more information, advice, grace, and experience than we do, not to mention that they have to face greater responsibilities. We shouldn't judge their decisions until the results are clear, and maybe not even then. We shouldn't even criticize presidents and ministers most of the time. We may disagree with Pope Francis, but that isn't a catastrophe. At least, not yet.
Quote:
...there is really no excuse for a Pope abandoning tradition in order to try to appease the modern world.

Yes there is. First of all, he isn't abandoning Tradition; at least, not entirely. He may not be going along with it, but he's not destroying it. Second of all, he would have a good reason if his number one priority was evangelization, which it appears to be. If his reign brings just one hundred people into the Church, and reduces the criticism of the Church by the overall media even a little; it will have been worth it, in the end. And to do that, he doesn't have to satisfy the secular world, he just has to make it take a closer look.

I would love to have a conversation with your ex-Catholic friend; anyone who thinks that the Catholic Church is trying to be Christian as defined by the Protestant heretics could use some help.

jovan: This does not necessarily represent a departure from tradition. It might, but I doubt it. It seems to me that, again, Francis is trying to make the secular world take a closer look at the Church. I don't agree with his methods any more than you do, but we can't say that he's terrible quite yet.

Quote:
Though I share many of the opinions expressed in this thread, I'm going to attempt to refrain from complaining. It does none of us any good. As a monarchist, I have to accept that I'll occasionally get a bad monarch, and this is no different. We Catholics survived Paul VI and JPII. This papacy won't be nearly as long as JPII's. We'll get through it.

What he said!


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royalcello

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Reply with quote  #75 

I'm sorry, but after Paul VI and John Paul II whose disastrous pontificates we have had plenty of time to digest I think traditionalists cannot be expected to have any more patience, though I respect Aaron's decision.

Once again, why are non-Catholics like me who are repelled by modernism, egalitarianism, and the diminishing of traditional pageantry less important than non-Catholics who are supposedly put off by traditional pageantry?

I don't want the Church to be "relevant" to the modern world. I hate the modern world. It's full of republics and stupid ideologies and ugly music and ugly buildings. If the modern secular world doesn't hate the Church, the Church is doing something wrong.

I'm an Anglican, not a Roman Catholic, largely because of my love of Anglican choral music and the British monarchy, and also because I dislike contemporary "conservative" RC single-issue politics and refuse to be associated with anti-gay polemics. But I don't have much respect for contemporary Anglican leaders either. Sometimes it feels like there is nowhere for an anti-egalitarian cultural traditionalist to turn, and that's why people like my Maurrasian French friend (formerly "GrumpyTroll"), once a devout SSPX traditional Catholic, reach the conclusion they do. Even at my own mostly enviable Episcopal parish, though it's still I think preferable to any Roman Catholic parish in Dallas, I have to coexist with practices (primarily noisy alternative "contemporary" services and the display of the US flag in the chancel) contrary to my beliefs. It's grating, though today I suppose one should focus on Good Friday.

 

 

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