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Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #46 
His Holiness is the first pope in over a century to refuse taking up residence in the Apostolic Palace.  He has chosen instead to stay in a suite the Santa Marta residence used by the cardinals during the conclave and currently lived in by a variety of Vatican employees and clergy.

http://news.yahoo.com/francis-may-first-pope-110-years-decline-swank-195224067.html;_ylt=A2KJ2UhRDFJRvSgAYQTQtDMD

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jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethiomonarchist
His Holiness is the first pope in over a century to refuse taking up residence in the Apostolic Palace.  He has chosen instead to stay in a suite the Santa Marta residence used by the cardinals during the conclave and currently lived in by a variety of Vatican employees and clergy.

http://news.yahoo.com/francis-may-first-pope-110-years-decline-swank-195224067.html;_ylt=A2KJ2UhRDFJRvSgAYQTQtDMD


Yes, his ego driven false 'humility' will create massive headaches and mounds of extra work for his security detail. The more I see of this 'humble' Pope, the more I am convinced that he suffers from overweening pride and may, indeed, be the proudest man ever elevated to the Papacy.

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
royalcello

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Reply with quote  #48 
Good grief. Once again I concur with Jovan, many of whose coreligionists have seemed rather blind to me lately. Do "conservative" Catholics ever think about how off-putting the "whatever the Pope does is ipso facto wonderful and saintly" mentality is to thinking, not unsympathetic non-Catholic Christians?
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #49 
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Originally Posted by royalcello
Good grief. Once again I concur with Jovan, many of whose coreligionists have seemed rather blind to me lately. Do "conservative" Catholics ever think about how off-putting the "whatever the Pope does is ipso facto wonderful and saintly" mentality is to thinking, not unsympathetic non-Catholic Christians?


There is a big difference between 'conservative Catholics' and other CINOs (Catholics in name only) and Catholics.

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
royalcello

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Reply with quote  #50 

Yes, but I see even Catholics who could have been placed in the "traditional" camp during the pontificate of Benedict XVI and with whom I often then agreed going soft on Francis, who at least liturgically would appear to be practically the opposite of his predecessor.


I suppose it has to be expected that most Catholics (except perhaps in the UK itself) are not going to necessarily share our views on the Falklands, which to be fair probably would have inclined me against an Argentine pope from the beginning. But there are other issues, obviously.

DavidV

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Reply with quote  #51 
The obsession with being oh-so-humble is noxious. On the other hand, I recall Peter Hitchens' piece from 2008, when he mentioned how well the elites of Cuba and China live, which only makes the cult of "humility" all the more absurd.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #52 
He didn't live the fine palace before he took the new job either.  It isn't like the is some new gimmick.  The fellow even returned the rubber bands his newspapers where bound with every month when he paid for his subscription.  The new monarch isn't one for large drafty palaces.  The college of electors knew that when they picked him.  If you wanna fuss, maybe fuss at the Cardinals who chose him, not a fellow who's still being the same kind of fellow he was before he was elected....
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jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #53 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
He didn't live the fine palace before he took the new job either.  It isn't like the is some new gimmick.  The fellow even returned the rubber bands his newspapers where bound with every month when he paid for his subscription.  The new monarch isn't one for large drafty palaces.  The college of electors knew that when they picked him.  If you wanna fuss, maybe fuss at the Cardinals who chose him, not a fellow who's still being the same kind of fellow he was before he was elected....


And he was just as proud, parading his false humility, as a Cardinal as he is as Pope. A Cardinal is a Prince of the Church, not a simple parish priest. The 'trappings' are not to glorify the man. They are to lend dignity to the office. True humility would be to accept, in an humble spirit, the necessity of living in a palace.

What would you think of Her Majesty if she decided to be 'humble' and move into a council house?

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Tolgron

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Reply with quote  #54 
Myself I'm not sure if he's being humble to show off, to me it does seem as though he's trying to live simply and in accordance to Christian asceticism. However, as he was first a Cardinal and then a Pope, inevitably the cameras and media are going to follow it and start asking the inane question journalists with too much time on their hands always do. While I am regretful that some of the more beautiful trappings of the Church may be done away with and that, once again, hopes for a Papal coronation are going to have to wait until the next Conclave, I'm going to assume that His Holiness is being bare-bones for honest reasons. Times are hard nowadays, and to live in luxury while many live in poverty could make a man very uncomfortable.

Of course I won't agree with him on the Falklands (I'm happy to play my Anglican card on that one), but again, at present, I don't think his "humble" approach is an attempt to garner attention. It's not as though he holds a press conference to announce that he's decided to eat nothing but gruel and hard grey bread, because he's hurting for the poor and all that. It's also barely been a couple of weeks since he's come to the Papal Throne. I'd rather wait until September or August before coming to a final decision about what his tenure is going to be like.
royalcello

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Reply with quote  #55 
I disagree; the Anglo-Catholic movement in the 19th century, closely associated with ministry in the poorest slums, correctly held that it was precisely those whose daily lives were most miserable who needed the otherworldly pomp and splendour of elaborate catholic worship, appealing to all the senses, most of all. Maintaining papal tradition, especially in its already-watered-down post-Vatican-II form, is not "living in luxury" and abandoning it does not help anyone.
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #56 
Exactly. I can understand if someone would choose to live austerely, but the manner of this is obnoxious, hypocritical, self-defeating and frankly insulting to ordinary believers like me.
Anti_Collegial

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Reply with quote  #57 
Hello good men.

As an Anglican currently sitting in on RCIA, with plans to enroll in the next session I am horrified by the comments supposedly made by Cardinal Bergoglio regarding the Anglican Ordinarium to one Bishop Venables.  As someone that was graciously welcomed into the Church by the evangelistic efforts of Pope Benedict XVI how do you think I feel when the then Cardinal reportedly said to the Bishop, "the Ordinariate was quite unnecessary and the church needs us as Anglicans."   Cardinal Bergoglio also was quick to lament Pope Benedict XVI's Regensburg lecture as setback to Islamic relations.

Two Popes approach the wall to pray....  

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HRH_Jonathan

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Reply with quote  #58 
Gentlemen, gentlemen, please, have a little faith. Have faith in the Holy Ghost, have faith in Holy Mother Church, and please, have faith in the Holy Pontiff.
Did the Papal Election turn out the way that anyone expected? No. Is Pope Francis doing what most people hoped for? No. Is this a bad thing? No. We all expected a Pope who would be elected, restore all the trappings of his office to their proper places, and begin reforming the Church by forcing the liberal/traditionalist groups into line, solidifying the liturgy until there can be no doubt or dissent about it, and busting the heads of those who are stepping too far out of line. We didn't get that. Instead, we got Pope Francis.
You know what that tells me? That God probably doesn't think the time is right for the first guy, and that Francis is the Pope we need right now, at the present moment. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is all a fluke caused by a sudden upwelling of Human Nature. But even if I am wrong, even if Francis is a prideful, hypocritical idiot who will do none of the things that need doing, or simply the wrong person for the job, it's not going to be that bad. He'll be around for a decade or two at the utmost, hold the Church in an overall gridlock, and worsen our already-atrocious public image just a smidgen. And then he will be gone, and with the Grace of God, things will get back on track. That is the worst-case scenario.
And I really don't think that we are in the worst possible situation with Pope Francis. Would I have preferred him to accept the full coronation and stand before the people in blazing sacred glory of a sort not seen for a century? Yes, I would have. Would my traditionalist sensibilities have been soothed if he had immediately continued spreading the Latin Mass? Yes, they would have been. Is he doing what I would do in his shoes? No. But that's probably a good thing. I don't know the situation of the world at large. I don't have to balance the needs, wants, and opinions of hundreds of millions of lay people, hundreds of bishops in varying political stances, dozens of heresies presenting the opportunity to be reintegrated, a vast secular media that hates everything I stand for, and billions of unbelievers in desperate need of salvation. The world is a huge and scary place full of complications and confusion, and the Pope has the responsibility of being in charge of saving it all. That's not a job I could do; that's not even a job I could help with. Not only am I not good at being Pope, I can't even guarantee I know what being a good Pope looks like in our present situation. So when the Magisterium and its associated leader does something I don't expect, I do my best to accept it and move on. They have experience and information I don't, they have to take into account difficulties that I don't even know exist, and most importantly, they have God's grace guiding them.
Maybe now isn't the time for a liturgical reformer Pope? Maybe what we need now is someone who will improve the Church's standing in the secular world so that our message will actually be heard. Maybe we need someone who will stabilize the Church so that future Popes with greater destinies will have more flexibility. Maybe we need a Pope who will reach out and convert thousands of new Catholics from the ranks of atheism. I don't know. As a matter of fact, I can't know. I simply don't have the tools. And I can say with a near-absolute certainty that you don't either. Nor does anyone in my parish, nor anyone on this board, nor anyone on any other board. I'd even be willing to bet that the archbishop of my diocese has only an inkling at best.
So please, feel free to criticize Pope Francis. Feel free to disagree with him and think badly of his positions and think to yourself, "I would have done something completely different." But don't hate him. Don't judge the vine to be bad until it actually bears bitter fruit. When he is causing believers to suffer, fail, and fall away from the truth; then maybe, maybe, we can call him a bad Pope. But who knows, maybe even that would be part of the Will of God. He does work in mysterious ways, after all.
In the mean time, please restrain yourselves. Because every time one of us gives in to the modernist spirit that your faction has to win the next election, or its over; and every time you judge a leader's decision without coming to appreciate its greater context first, the world becomes a little bit more un-monarchist.

Allow me to note that this is not addressed to anyone in particular.
Thank you.

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Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #59 
I think HRH_Jonathan and Tolgron have made good points.  Although I'm not a Roman Catholic, I have to say I'm somewhat disappointed with the way Pope Francis has approached things like ritual and papal dress etc.  I like to see traditions preserved.  However I don't want to rush in and call his outward humility a feigned act, or a symptom of emense pride or self importance just yet.  The man really may feel in his heart that he cannot put on the more lavish trappings of the office such as living in the Apostolic Palace without removing himself from a more direct connection with those whom he reigns over.  As HRH_Jonathan said, perhaps God intended his papacy for some other specific perpose which we can't discern.  Perhaps we would all feel better if he would have been crowned properly, and then done the other humbler things... but then again, whether we feel better about it or not is besides the point.  If His Holiness' conscience tells him this is how he should conduct his papacy, I don't think it's my place to criticize.   His Holiness is a sovereign, and although I don't see anything wrong with criticizing specific actions, judging his charactger is a step to far for me. To quote HRH_Jonathan,

 
Quote:
...every time you judge a leader's decision...., the world becomes a little bit more un-monarchist.


As to the "reported" conversation between the then Cardianal Bergoglio and an unnamed bishop that our friend Anti-Collegial mentions, it seems more like unsubstantiated heresay to me.

In other news, Pope Francis is conducting the Holy Thursday cermenoy of the Washing of the Feet at a youth prison outside of Rome today rather than at St. Peter's Basilica or the Basilica of St. John in Lateran (his cathedral as Bishop of Rome) where it is usually conducted.

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-urges-catholic-priests-help-poor-shun-careerism-112315330.html

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
royalcello

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Reply with quote  #60 

The Church's "standing in the secular world" is not going to be improved because the pope diminishes the ceremonial surrounding his office. The secular world would not be satisfied unless Rome completely repudiated and reversed its teachings on life and sexuality, which is not going to happen. And for this non-Catholic, it is precisely actions such as those of Pope Francis (and the irrational mentality of Catholics who insist that whatever the pope does is ipso facto praiseworthy) that are an obstacle to any conversion. Not that I have any confidence in contemporary Anglican leadership either--I didn't care for much of what I read about the recent enthronement at Canterbury.

Let me try to explain why some traditionalists may seem angry and bitter. During the pontificate of Benedict XVI, especially after 2007's "Summorum Pontificum," it was possible to being to believe that after the four decades of liturgical desolation that followed Vatican II, the Church was ever so gently and slowly headed back in the right direction, so that that desolation might eventually come to be seen as a temporary aberration.  But now everything that Pope Francis has done so far suggests that it was Benedict XVI's reign that was an aberration, and we are now headed back more towards the more modernist and spartan liturgical sensibilities of Paul VI and John Paul II. Even as an outsider I find that depressing; I can only imagine how traditionalist Catholics feel. The liberal "National Catholic Reporter" approvingly quotes an unnamed Vatican official who said "the Traditional Latin Mass brigade is finished." The ultra-modernist and criminal Cardinal Mahony of Los Angeles gloats "so long, papal ermine and fancy lace!" So yes, traditionalists are unhappy.

Last night I had a slightly depressing online chat with a former participant of this forum, a former traditional Catholic, who is now a right-wing atheist. He rejects Christianity because he sees it as at the root of the Western decline and egalitarianism we both dislike. He thinks Francis may be the "first authentically Christian pope," but of course from a right-wing atheist that is not really a compliment. But why are cultured, educated, intelligent, anti-liberal atheists like him, who are repelled by the egalitarianism and "simplicity" of "pure" Christians, less important than atheists who are supposedly put off by the traditional trappings of Church pageantry?

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