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Peter

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Reply with quote  #31 
Sure, but there has been no such ex cathedra pronouncement on sexual morality, nor is there any conciliar pronouncement on it. I'm not saying that teaching on morals couldn't be infallible, just that right now very little of it is.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Sure, but there has been no such ex cathedra pronouncement on sexual morality, nor is there any conciliar pronouncement on it. I'm not saying that teaching on morals couldn't be infallible, just that right now very little of it is.


Actually, since it's based on Scripture and the Infallible Teaching Magisterium of the Church pretty much 100% of it is, at least to Catholics. It is a common misconception amongst non-Catholics that only ex cathedra and conciliar statements are infallible. The Pope Emeritus, whilst Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, illustrated that this is not so when he used Apostolicae Curae, Leo XIII's Bull declaring Anglican Orders null and void, as an example of infallible teaching on Faith and Morals. The Bull makes no statement that it is ex cathedra and, in fact, in the terms of Pastor aeternus, cannot be since it is addressed only to English Catholics and not to the entire Church, and it is not a conciliar statrement, but Cardinal Ratzinger with the approval of Pope John Paul II used it as an example of the Infallible Teaching Magisterium.

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
royalcello

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jovan66102
Pope Francis strikes me as a very proud man. Proud of his 'humility'. True humility would be to accept the femblems of office even if they went against his own inclinations. The 'trappings' are not meant to glorify the man, they are meant to lend dignity to the office the man holds. Blessed John XXIII did not like the sede gestatoria. When it was pointed out to him that his duty as Pope included riding in it he humbly accepted. I see none of this true humility in Pope Francis. He is so 'humble' he refuses the vestments of the Papacy. He is so 'humble' he wastes time paying his own hotel bill (there are more than a few problems in the Church he could be dealing with instead of making a public display of his false 'humility'). He is so 'humble' that he doesn't want the Cardinals to wear their appropriate garb when meeting with him. <br><br>For those who have read C.S. Lewis' 'The Screwtape Letters', he deal with this sort of 'humility'. Satan loves it!<br><br>May God preserve His Church from the 'humble man'.


Hear, hear! I agree completely and don't think this point is made or understood nearly enough. But I'm glad a Catholic said it first.
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Reply with quote  #34 
Serving your tradition is humility, tossing it out is arrogance.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jovan66102
Actually, since it's based on Scripture and the Infallible Teaching Magisterium of the Church pretty much 100% of it is, at least to Catholics. It is a common misconception amongst non-Catholics that only ex cathedra and conciliar statements are infallible. The Pope Emeritus, whilst Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, illustrated that this is not so when he used Apostolicae Curae, Leo XIII's Bull declaring Anglican Orders null and void, as an example of infallible teaching on Faith and Morals. The Bull makes no statement that it is ex cathedra and, in fact, in the terms of Pastor aeternus, cannot be since it is addressed only to English Catholics and not to the entire Church, and it is not a conciliar statrement, but Cardinal Ratzinger with the approval of Pope John Paul II used it as an example of the Infallible Teaching Magisterium.

It is actually from practicing Catholics that I have heard this. I think that most non-Catholics believe that Papal Infallibility means that the Pope is incapable of being wrong about anything, even tomorrow's weather, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Catholics do too. Here is an authoritative statement of what is necessary for infallibility by a Catholic, which though old I would imagine has not been superseded. It would seem to argue more on my side of things than yours. One would also have to wonder why, if the Pope speaking on faith and morals is infallible when not ex cathedra, the First Vatican Council defined it as being so when it is.

I had a look at Apostolicae Curae, and it fulfils the four conditions. The wording of paragraphs 36 and 40 shows that the Bull was intended to bind the whole Church and that it was irrevocable, clearly it was a decision made by the supreme teaching authority of the Church, and while I suppose it might be argued that it did not concern a doctrine of faith and morals, it could equally be argued that the validity of ordinations is a doctrine of faith. Since the then Cardinal Ratzinger called it infallible presumably that was his understanding. My understanding is that for teaching on sexual morality to be infallible it would have to be delivered in a way that met the four conditions, and I'm not aware of any that has been. If you can show examples then I will readily admit that I am wrong (though not, of course, that the teaching is not).
Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #36 
I agree with Jovan's point about Pope Francis' show of humility.   It will also make it difficult for future Popes to do anything but follow his example.   
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jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter

It is actually from practicing Catholics that I have heard this. I think that most non-Catholics believe that Papal Infallibility means that the Pope is incapable of being wrong about anything, even tomorrow's weather, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Catholics do too. Here is an authoritative statement of what is necessary for infallibility by a Catholic, which though old I would imagine has not been superseded. It would seem to argue more on my side of things than yours. One would also have to wonder why, if the Pope speaking on faith and morals is infallible when not ex cathedra, the First Vatican Council defined it as being so when it is.

I had a look at Apostolicae Curae, and it fulfils the four conditions. The wording of paragraphs 36 and 40 shows that the Bull was intended to bind the whole Church and that it was irrevocable, clearly it was a decision made by the supreme teaching authority of the Church, and while I suppose it might be argued that it did not concern a doctrine of faith and morals, it could equally be argued that the validity of ordinations is a doctrine of faith. Since the then Cardinal Ratzinger called it infallible presumably that was his understanding. My understanding is that for teaching on sexual morality to be infallible it would have to be delivered in a way that met the four conditions, and I'm not aware of any that has been. If you can show examples then I will readily admit that I am wrong (though not, of course, that the teaching is not).


Peter, there's an old joke that says a German theologian is not sure that the Pope has ever spoken ex cathedra, but an Irish Parish Priest thinks that his every sneeze is such a statement. However, there is little doubt that the Pope has spoken ex cathedra in at least two instances, the promulgation of the Dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin. The normal wording of such a pronouncement is along these lines:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munificentissimus Deus
By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

45. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.



You will note that the Dogma is declared to be divinely revealed. 

Wikipedia has this to say about the status of Apostolicae Curae:


Quote:
 Ratzinger’s commentary listed Leo XIII’s declaration in Apostolicae Curae that Anglican orders are “absolutely null and utterly void” as one of the teachings to which Catholics must give “firm and definitive assent”. These teachings are not understood by the Church as revealed doctrines but are rather those the church’s teaching authority finds to be so closely connected to God's revealed truth that belief in them is required to safeguard the divinely revealed truths of the Christian Faith. Those who fail to give “firm and definitive assent”, according to the commentary, would “no longer be in full communion with the Catholic Church”.


In other words, for a doctrine or teaching to be infallible in no way requires an ex cathedra statement. It simply requires that the Pope and the College of Bishops teach it as definitive, as they do the Church's teaching on sexual morality.

I know that you have stated that Scripture says very little on the matter. Whilst I might disagree with your exegesis it is immaterial The Catholic Church is not and never has been a believer in sola Scriptura. In fact, even the Second Vatican Council said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dei verbum, No. 10

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of God, committed to the Church. Holding fast to this deposit the entire holy people united with their shepherds remain always steadfast in the teaching of the Apostles, in the common life, in the breaking of the bread and in prayers (see Acts 2, 42, Greek text), so that holding to, practicing and professing the heritage of the faith, it becomes on the part of the bishops and faithful a single common effort.
But the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed.
It is clear, therefore, that Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God's most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.


You will note that there is no requirement of a Papal ex cathedra statement mentioned.

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Peter

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Reply with quote  #38 
I noted that your example, Apostolicae Curiae, actually fulfils the requirements for an ex cathedra statement. I will merely note otherwise that there are Catholics who believe that while the Church's teaching on sexual morality is not lightly to be disregarded it is not binding in the way that dogmatic definitions are. If, having carefully considered the teaching and examined your conscience, you conclude that it is in error you are not sinning by not following it, do not need to confess that you are not following it and obtain absolution since there was no sin in the first place, and remain in full communion.

The problem with regarding tradition as being binding in the same way as Scripture is, I have always felt, that unlike Scripture it is not written down. Oh, there are many documents from ancient days that can be said to refer to the tradition, but what selection from them are you going to make? To an extent, tradition is what the Church says it is, while Scripture is there, available to all to consult and it is not possible to argue about what is Scripture and what is not. Well, there is the Deuterocanon but it doesn't really contain anything of importance. It is not incidentally arguable as to whether Scripture says little on the matter. It just simply does not. What was it, eight passages in the entire Bible? And some of those are duplications. You can argue about my exegesis of the passages, certainly, but not over the fact that there are not very many of them, and none in the Gospels, which surely are the centre of all Scripture.
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #39 
In a stunning development, it has been announced that His All Holiness, Bartholemew I, Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople and First among Equals of the Hierarchs of the Eastern Orthodox Church, will attend the enthronement (I hate the usage of "Inauguration" for this) of His Holiness Pope Francis in Rome tomorrow.  It is the first time that the Patriarch of the Eastern Orthodox Church will have attended a Papal installation since the Great Scism of 1054.  In a further development, the Vatican has announced that the Gospel will be chanted in Greek using the Orthodox/Eastern rite usage, as will other parts of the service.

http://news.yahoo.com/orthodox-patriarch-rome-popes-installation-111214963.html



Pope Francis also showed affection for his sometime adversary, President Kirchner of Argentina, by kissing her on the cheek when she met with him after arriving to attend his installation.  She commented later that she "had never been kissed by a pope before".

http://news.yahoo.com/delicate-diplomacy-pope-meets-argentine-president-101239047.html


Another guest that has arrived is Zimbabwean despot Robert Mugabe who defied an EU ban on travel to a member state to attend the Pope's enthronement.  Technically, as the Vatican is a sovereign state, the EU travel ban that would apply in Italy does not apply to the Holy See.  Mugabe and his wife Grace arrived in Rome's international airport which is on Italian soil, but was welcomed by a priest from the Vatican who welcomed him to the Holy See.  Mugabe is a Roman Catholic and has attended several significant events at the Vatican in recent years.

http://news.yahoo.com/mugabe-slips-italy-papal-inauguration-134645249.html

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Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #40 
The Coat of Arms of Pope Francis have been made public.  The arms are the same ones that he used as Archbishop of Buenos Aires, but with the papal elements added.

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/coat-arms-newly-elected-pope-francis-seen-graphic-photo-140755998.html

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethiomonarchist
The Coat of Arms of Pope Francis have been made public.  The arms are the same ones that he used as Archbishop of Buenos Aires, but with the papal elements added.

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/coat-arms-newly-elected-pope-francis-seen-graphic-photo-140755998.html


Unfortunately, not all the Papal elements. Like Pope Benedict he has eschewed the use of the tiara in his Arms. Even tho' John Paul II was never crowned he still used it in his arms.

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Windemere

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Reply with quote  #42 
Well, Pope Francis certainly does appear to be playing to the crowd in his public appearances to date. Had the Cardinals chosen a Dominican or a Benedictine, they would likely have demonstrated more partiality toward the old papal  traditions of splendor and  dignity. But they opted for a Jesuit, and this is the result. Possibly he is hoping to set an example of austerity, which might be welcomed in these economically troubled times.

It's been said that in papal conclaves, the dilemma facing the Cardinals is a choice between a pastor and a politician. Francis appears to have some qualities from both. His concern for the poor is admirable, and hopefully he is sincere about it. His actions will speak louder than words.  He will also have to possess the ability , talent, and acumen to put his plans into action, which won't be easy. The Vatican sometimes seems to have a knack for good intentions accompanied by flawed execution. We can only wait and see, and hope for the best.

I think it's nice that the Ecumenical Patriarch is attending the enthronement.

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AaronTraas

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethiomonarchist

I'm sure that was just a typo on Aaron's part.  Here is a mistake on a bigger scale ...



It was, indeed, a mistake. 

I'm certainly praying for our new Pope. 
VivatReginaScottorum

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Reply with quote  #44 

I tried to be optimistic about Pope Francis, but having learned more about his past remarks on the Falkland Islands and seen that he is very clearly uninterested in the more monarchical side of the papacy, I have lost some respect for him. I miss Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI already. I completely agree, of course, that it is very admirable of His Holiness to be interested in the plight of the poor, though one would think this should be a given of any man of faith, let alone the Vicar of Christ, and remain hopeful that he will do away with some of the corruption in the curia and wider Church. I just don't see how a Pope can't be dedicated to improving the lot of the poor and purging the Church of corruption and at the same time take part fully in the rich traditions surrounding the Church and the Chair of St. Peter.

Still, I wish His Holiness and the Roman Catholic Church the best.


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Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #45 
His Holiness Pope Francis I received several royal guests that are in Rome for his instalation.

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/spains-prince-felipe-l-princess-letizia-greeted-pope-photo-172057339.html

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/dutch-spanish-royals-assemble-inaugural-mass-pope-francis-photo-085152804.html

Queen Paola of Belgium and Grand Ducess Maria Theresa of Luxembourg wore white, a privelege accorded to Catholic consorts of reigning monarchs.  Princess Charlene of Monaco did not.

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/inauguration-mass-pope-francis-20130319-063307-930.html

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/belgian-royals-prime-minister-attend-inaugural-mass-pope-photo-100925333.html




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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
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