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KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #16 
Yes, Peter, you are very much correct. I'm glad you enjoyed the exercise![biggrin]
Peter

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Reply with quote  #17 
I did. To slightly correct myself, the Queen is as far as I can work out descended nineteen times from Henry VII, 'numerous times' as I said before therefore being a slight overstatement. There are three ways of tracing descent to today from the first Tudor monarch. These are firstly through his daughter Margaret, by marriage Queen of Scots and later Countess of Angus. All surviving legitimate descent from either marriage is traced through James I & VI, great-grandson of the first marriage maternally and the second paternally. The Queen descends nine times from him, so that's eighteen descents. The only other way of tracing entirely legitimate descent from Henry VII is through his younger daughter Mary, by marriage Queen of France and later Duchess of Suffolk. The Queen is also descended, once only as far as I can see, from Mary's second marriage (the only one from which there was issue), though the entire legitimacy of the descent is not unimpugnable; there are ways of descending from Mary that are unquestionably legitimate in every link, but the one the Queen enjoys is not. Regardless, eighteen plus one makes nineteen.

The third way to trace descent from Henry VII is through illegitimate children of Margaret's son James V of Scotland, of which he had a lot. Descent in this way is rife in the British aristocracy but none that I could trace comes to the Queen (the Duke of Cambridge though has a number of such descents). So, nineteen, though these do come in more than one generation so the general burden of my earlier remarks was correct enough.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #18 
KYM is no longer here to pose further challenges, and there's not much point in me giving one to myself (if I could think of any, which at the moment I can't). If anyone else does I will be very pleased to tackle it, as I would any royal genealogical questions anyone might have. In the meantime, this was an earlier thread of the same kind. A lot earlier, and I display some volatile behaviour on it of which I am not proud. There's some interesting things on it, though, some few of which in mutated form found their way into threads in this section, and I thought others might like to have a look through it. Nowadays I would of course have answered the first question in a quite different way, like this to be precise. [smile]
Windemere

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Reply with quote  #19 
Not so much a challenge, as a trivia question:

What genealogical feature was shared by:

King Johann (John) I of Saxony
King Victor Emmanuel II of Italy
King Leopold II of Belgium
King Ludwig III of Bavaria
King Ferdinand I of Rumania
King Ferdinand I of Bulgaria


Hint: Alexander Saxe-Gessaphe (one of the present heirs to Saxony) and Nicholas Medforth-Mills de Roumanie (until last August, one of the heirs to Rumania), share the same feature.

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #20 

Wow, that’s a puzzling one. Omitting the repetition of the Saxon King, here are their ancestries:

Johann I of Saxony
Vittorio Emanuele II of Italy
Léopold II of Belgium
Ludwig III of Bavaria
Ferdinand I of Romania
Ferdinand I of Bulgaria

And also Alexander Saxe-Gessaphe and Nicholas Medforth-Mills. At the moment I’m stumped, but I’ll continue to worry away at it. I’ve posted this with the links to make it easier for others who want to try it to do the same.

Windemere

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Reply with quote  #21 
Peter. thanks for your reply, and for letting me know about my double-listing of King Johann of Saxony, which I'll soon delete from my post above.

The answer actually appears in the Genealogical.org links that you've posted, although in some cases you must click back a few times. Take your time.

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Dis Aliter Visum "Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."
Peter

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Reply with quote  #22 
They are all uterine-line descendants of the Empress Maria Theresa.
Windemere

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Reply with quote  #23 
That is exactly right, Peter.
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Dis Aliter Visum "Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."
Peter

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Reply with quote  #24 
It came to me last night as I was trying to get to sleep. I'm embarrassed to say that I was able to check the whole lot from memory before I finally drifted off, except that I couldn't remember who Alexander Saxe-Gessaphe's mother's mother was so had to look him up this morning. It certainly was a tough one, but if you've got any more I'm up for them!
Peter

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Reply with quote  #25 

Doing a little follow-up work as I usually do with a challenge, other sovereigns I can think of who shared the distinction are Francesco I of the Two Sicilies; Leopold II of Tuscany; Lodovico I of Parma, who was also Napoleonic King of Etruria; Maria II da Glória of Portugal and her brother Pedro II of Brazil; Friedrich August II (elder brother and predecessor of Johann I) and Friedrich August III of Saxony; and Ferdinand I/V. Ferdinánd and Karl I/IV. Károly of, inter alia, Austria and Hungary. And of course the Emperors Joseph II and Leopold II, but as they were Maria Theresa’s sons that hardly seems to count. Louis XVII of France and Navarre also, but his reign was only titular. As was that of Napoléon II, who likewise would otherwise qualify.

No future sovereign is likely to, barring an unlikely chain of events. As can be seen here, only eight females are alive today that preserve the line and are of an age where future childbearing is possible (modern medical miracles aside), these being Queen Anne of Romania’s granddaughters Karina Medforth-Mills, Angelica Kreuger and Elisabeta-Maria Biarneix, plus Angelica Kreuger’s daughters Courtney and Diana Knight; the sisters Doña Leonor and Doña Micaela de Escoriaza y Gilliéron; and Marie Ghiglione (whose age I am presuming from her parents’ marriage date).

Who knows what King Michael’s version of the Romanian succession is from day to day, or who it will be that reoccupies Romania’s throne should that happy day ever come. I suppose one of the first five listed or the one and only brother of any of them is a chance, as are King Michael's daughters, including Margareta the alleged Crown Princess, but a slim one. Similarly, one of these women and girls might someday marry a sovereign or sovereign’s heir and produce another sovereign, but the likelihood of it seems infinitesimally small.

Maria Theresa’s own uterine line can be traced back as far as an 11th-century Gräfin von Arlon of unknown first name. So Genealogics reckons, anyway; stage I, stage II, stage III. Maria Theresa herself had as many as sixteen children, but descent survives from only four of these, the Emperor Leopold II, Archduchesses Maria Amalia and Maria Carolina, respectively Duchess of Parma and Queen of Naples and Sicily by marriage, and Archduke Ferdinand, who married the heiress of Modena and ought to have been Duke of Modena himself, but due to the Napoleonic Wars wasn’t.

The male line from Maria Theresa and her husband Emperor Franz I is preserved only, albeit abundantly, by the agnatic descendants of Leopold II (no fewer than five of his sons have male-line descendants today), and the uterine line from Maria Theresa only by the uterine descendants of Maria Carolina, not so abundantly as we have seen, a viable line surviving from just one of her daughters. Descent more generally expressed is of course very abundant indeed, the present-day Catholic sovereigns all possessing it, the Prince of Monaco aside.

Felipe VI is descended 13 times by my count, Grand Duke Henri five, Prince Hans-Adam II twice and King Philippe only once. The only (eventual) current heir that will improve on the incumbent’s count is Prince Joseph Wenzel of Liechtenstein, a ten times descendant. Henri is descended from all four of the Imperial children with a surviving posterity, Felipe VI and Hans-Adam II from two of them (the same two, Leopold II and Maria Carolina) and Philippe from Maria Carolina only. Prince Joseph Wenzel again descends from all four.

Finally, Emperor Franz I was overshadowed in life and is in historical memory by his formidable wife, albeit he seemed very content with the marriage and was his wife’s close aide and confidant. One thing about him that stands out to me is his ancestry, which I find to be diverse, fascinating and aesthetically pleasing, and which although he was one of 13 siblings was passed to the royalty of today by him alone in legitimate line.

His younger brother Prince Charles Alexander of Lorraine has a known surviving posterity through an illegitimate daughter, which extends to the children of the Prince of Prussia, of the late Carl, 8th Prince of Wied, and of Archduke Martin of Austria, a grandson of Karl I of that alas former realm. However, all of these descendants of Charles Alexander are descendants also of Franz I and his wife Maria Theresa, with whom Windemere’s challenge began.

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