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Domhangairt

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Peter III was the Romanoff heir, which surely entitled him to use the Romanoff name. Historically, few monarchs have been wholly or largely of the blood of the people they ruled. Some have not even been partially so, and many have had only the remotest trace of the native blood of their realm. That did not stop them being lawful monarchs, or loved by their people, or natives in spirit even if not by blood. Queen Wilhelmina's father Willem III married a German as you say, a Princess of Waldeck and Pyrmont. And his father Willem II married a Russian Grand Duchess, ethnically German (apart from her great-great-grandfather Peter I who was Russian and her great-great-grandmother Catherine I who was, we're not sure really, but maybe Latvian). His father Willem I married a Princess of Prussia, as did his father Willem V of Orange. His father Willem IV married a British princess, ethnically German, and his father Jan Willem Friso, first of that direct line to rule in the Netherlands, married a Landgravine of Hesse-Cassell.

So why there should have been shock and horror when Queen Wilhelmina married a Mecklenburg Duke (not Grand Duke) is beyond me. I don't think there was, actually, and I believe that she had the admiration and respect of the bulk of her people through most of her long reign. While she did have periods of unpopularity I doubt this was due to either her or her husband's (very similar) ethnicity. While he was never loved this was because he never did much to merit it, and I think people realised that Queen Wilhelmina had rather more of a voice in government than she was constitutionally supposed to. Which was fine when things went well, but, justly enough, meant she got blamed when they didn't.

You don't mention Prince Bernhard, just as German, perhaps because, at least until his misdeeds were exposed, he was extremely popular. The Duke of Edinburgh is also well-liked by the British public, despite (or even a little because of) his tendency to open his mouth and put his foot straight in it. The Swedish people though don't seem especially thrilled to have a Swedish consort for their future Queen, nor were the Norwegians over-ecstatic when the then Crown Prince Harald married a Norwegian. I really don't think any sweeping case can be made for modern monarchs having to be of the same ethnicity as their subjects. Which, as I started out by saying, in the past they almost never were.
Domhangairt

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Reply with quote  #17 
I respectfully disagree. I very much doubt whether Prince William's marriage would have been such a public success had he married some frumpy German princess with a strong German accent. The fact that Kate Middleton is so quintessentially English was a big factor in the British public's acceptance of her. They feel that "she is one of us". Princess Victoria of Sweden's marriage was controversial because of Daniel Westling's  occupation and family backround, not his ethnicity- the former gym instructor from the provinces was not considered a suitable consort for the future Swedish queen. Likewise, Mette Marit Hoijby was also not seen as a suitable consort because she was an unmarried single mother  who's previous romantic involvement was a suspected drug dealer, not because she was Norwegian.

 In previous centuries it was royal rank which was the most important factor in the eyes of the public, not ethnicity. The whole mood has changed in recent times, which is why marriage equality has been abandoned by most of Europe's royal families. Foreign princes are not wanted in individual nation states. I can tell you from spending time in Scotland that Scots are decidedly luke warm towards the British royal house. The most recent opinion poll indicates that only 54% of Scots would vote to keep the monarchy in the event of a referendum which was one of the reasons why the entire leadership of the British establishment including the Queen rushed across the Scottish border when opinion polls suggested that Unionists might loose the independence referendum last year. About forty percent of Scots regards the Queen and her family as German imports. I can tell you that the Spanish monarchy is not wanted in Andalucía, or Catalonia, and the Belgian royal house is no longer supported in Flanders. In Sweden the majority of party policy makers in all of the main stream parties would prefer to replace the French House of Bernadotte with an elected Head of State, but they can't because the majority of Swedes still support the monarchy. The ruling Swedish Social Democrats tried to abolish the Swedish monarchy after the death of King Gustaf Adolf in 1973, but the Swedish Parliament was split down the centre on the issue. At a special closed interparty conference, the ruling Social Democrat party leaders agreed to keep the Bernadotte royal house in exchange for stripping the Swedish monarch of his constitutional powers. This is not generally known to the Swedish public and they were not invited to participate in the discussion.  

Those monarchs who understand this new trend and adapt to it will survive, those who still see themselves as part of a pan-European ruling class will loose their thrones. None of the present monarchies in Europe are secure. Those who identify closely with their national communities have a future, those who cannot will not have a future. Mass immigration into Europe has fanned the fires of nationalism and made ordinary Europeans much more conscious of their ethnicity- and also the ethnicity of their royal families.

Peter

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Reply with quote  #18 
We'll agree to differ on that, then. I would point out though that it was the marriage of Queen Sonja that I was referring to, not that of the present Crown Prince. As a curiosity, there is a precedent for a sovereign being married to a commoner with a love child from a previous relationship: this was the (very popular and successful) Frederik VII of Denmark, whose third marriage exactly paralleled that of Crown Prince Haakon, except for being morganatic and the absence of drug dealing.
DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #19 
Nationalism isn't that much of a recent thing, though. I think a lot of people today are less nationalist today than they were a century ago. Maybe mass migration will change that, but for every person opposing that there seems to be another one supporting it. How about all the cosmopolitan people who identify themselves as EU citizens or even world citizens today?

Also, adding to Peter's examples from my country there is of course Queen Maxima, who may not be a foreign princess, but was definitely a member of the elite of a foreign country, and she was definitely wanted here. Also, the Dutch royal family has always made a point of being there for people of different backgrounds. They are quite popular among migrants as well, and identifying too closely with one ethnicity could turn into a disadvantage.   
royalcello

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Reply with quote  #20 
I must admit the whole episode leaves a bad taste in my mouth regarding King Michael (who I had always deeply admired) and especially his son-in-law "Prince" Radu.
Domhangairt

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by royalcello
I must admit the whole episode leaves a bad taste in my mouth regarding King Michael (who I had always deeply admired) and especially his son-in-law "Prince" Radu.
Domhangairt

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Reply with quote  #22 
According to a spokesman of the Romanian Royal Court there was a very emotional exchange between King Michael and Nicholas. They strongly disagree on the style and image of the monarchy. They may have mutually agreed to part ways. I think that King Michael is very old school, whereas Nicholas is more modern. The Prime Minister had offered to hold another referendum if he got re-elected - however I don't think this is a good idea at all at the moment. King Michael may have to bring young Prince Alexander of Hohenzollern into the succession- he is apparently quite interested in politics unlike his father - but he is not descended from any of the Hohenzollern kings of Romania- or alternatively, Michael may have to do the unthinkable- grant dynastic status to the Lambrinos- they are the only living male line descendants of King Ferdinand. Perhaps an arranged marriage between Prince Alexander and one of Michael's grand-daughters. I don't think Nicholas is coming back anytime soon.
Domhangairt

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Reply with quote  #23 
Zizi Lambrino must be having a good laugh in the Spirit world. She was unceremoniously abandoned by Carol II, having to raise their son alone. Then Carol abandoned his second dynastic wife, Helena of Greece, alienating his only dynastic son Michael in the process.  He ended his days living with his mistress and third wife Magda Lupescu. He showed no interest in either of his sons. Now it's karmic pay back time for Zizi Lambrino She was of aristocratic Romanian birth, but not foreign born, and not royal. Todays Commoner consorts would not have even got a glance from the prewar royals.
royalcello

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Reply with quote  #24 
It seems to me that with all due respect, when King Michael is no longer with us, Romanian monarchists have no obligation whatsoever to regard the disinheritance of Nicholas as permanent and binding.
Domhangairt

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by royalcello
It seems to me that with all due respect, when King Michael is no longer with us, Romanian monarchists have no obligation whatsoever to regard the disinheritance of Nicholas as permanent and binding.


I agree. But will Nicholas be willing to return?? Moving to Romania was a huge adjustment for him. Eastern European society is very different from British society. His Linked-In page suggests he is looking for a new life outside Romania. Perhaps a marriage between Alexander of Hohenzollern and one of King Michael's grand-daughters is the solution.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #26 
Erik Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn pointed out in one of his books (was it 'Leftism'?) that at the beginning of the Great War, only Serbia and Montenegro had Monarchs who were really of the same nationality as their subjects. Yes, some had been long established such as the Habsburgs, but even they were originally Swiss.
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Domhangairt

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jovan66102
Erik Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn pointed out in one of his books (was it 'Leftism'?) that at the beginning of the Great War, only Serbia and Montenegro had Monarchs who were really of the same nationality as their subjects. Yes, some had been long established such as the Habsburgs, but even they were originally Swiss.


Yes, and this is the dilemma facing Europe's post-war pretenders. The dawn of the 21st century has seen a meteoric rise in nationalist sentiment fueled by chaotic immigration policies, and EU encroachment on national sovereignty. Nineteenth century concerns about royal connections and pan-European royal blood no longer apply. Modern Europeans want a monarch who's personal ethnic heritage reflects their own. They want a king who is the living embodiment of their national history and heritage. This is why royal restorations in Georgia, Serbia, Albania, and Montenegro are favoured by a majority of the citizens of those nation states, while restoration movements in Romania, Russia, Bulgaria, Greece, Hungary and Bohemia (Czech republic), are struggling to find adequate public support. The Russian monarchist movement does not even support Maria Vladimirovna - they favour the election of a new dynasty to the Russian Throne in a similar manner to the election of the Romanoffs in 1613. After all, Maria is of Danish-Georgian heritage, while her son's father is a Hohenzollern- the rulers of the same German empire who's troops killed millions of Russian troops during the Great War (WWI). Makes you think, doesn't it. 
Peter

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Reply with quote  #28 
Crown Prince Alexander II is ethnically half German, a quarter Greek, an eighth Montenegrin and an eighth Serb. His sons (at least one of whom needs to hurry up and get started on the next generation) have the Serbian component of their ethnicities reduced to one sixteenth. I submit that he is perhaps not the best example for you to use in proving how essential it is for potential monarchs to be of the same ethnicity as their possible future subjects.

The titular Leka II of Albania is a better choice perhaps, being, oh, a whole quarter Albanian. The rest is a mixture of Hungarian and British or British-origin, the latter two forming the bulk of it. With Crown Prince Nikola II you may have struck paydirt, he is half Montenegrin with some Serb mixed in, the other half being French, as was his late wife, the mother of his heir. Prince David, the Georgian claimant, is less suitable for your purposes, being only a quarter Georgian and even that portion has some Russian admixture; for the rest, he is half Spanish and a quarter Italian. His wife though does seem to be pretty much Georgian.

I respect your genealogical knowledge and regard it as superior to mine. On this particular topic, though, you remind me of the Jacobites who supported Prince Charles Edward Stuart as the native son against the alien usurper George II, while quietly ignoring the fact that the two, third cousins, had exactly the same proportion of (mostly) British blood. One sixteenth.
Windemere

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Reply with quote  #29 
Thanks for the above insights into the current status of the Rumanian royal family.

It's too bad about Nicholas' disinheritance as heir, but his 5-year sojourn in Rumania must have provided him with a beneficial understanding and appreciation of that nation which will always remain with him, as well as introducing him to the Rumanian people. At least for awhile, he lived among them, and they will remember that. It would be nice if he remains in Rumania and pursues a career there, but even if he decides to seek his fortunes elsewhere, his Rumanian adventure  was probably a worthwhile undertaking, and made him known to the Rumanian people. Who knows what the future may bring, and the experience he gained over the past 5 years may yet stand him in good stead.

Hopefully, old King Mihai will desist from any further ineffectual efforts to cull the line of succession, which will only impair his reputation. It would be to the best if he'd concentrate his efforts on working for the well-being of Rumania, and reinforce his standing as an honorable elder statesman and one-time regnant monarch. That should be his legacy, and should be how the nation will remember him.

I'd actually give Paul and Lia Hohenzollern/Lambrino a measure of credit for producing a child at their advanced ages. In vitro fertilsation is now a commonplace medical procedure. While their reputations may have been called into question at times in the past, from whatever little information may be now gleaned online about them, they appear to be living a respectable life in Rumania, and their 5 year old son (Carol Ferdinand) is being raised as a native Rumanian. He will speak the language, and in all likelihood, he will eventually become the only remaining agnatic Rumanian Hohenzollern.In the years to come, in the unfortunate event that King Mihai's grandchildren aren't inclined to pursue a role in Rumania, and if he's willing to do so, Carol could become a focus for Rumanian royalist aspirations.

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Windemere

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Reply with quote  #30 
Peter, thank you for posting the Genealogics.org link showing the relationship between George II and Bonnie Prince Charlie. It was known that Bonnie Prince Charlie's natural (though later legitimized) daughter Charlotte, the titular Duchess of Albany, had 3 children ( a son and 2 daughters) through her secret liaison with the Cardinal Prince Ferdinand de Rohan, the Archbishop of Bordeaux. The children were raised in secret in order to avoid any scandal.  The son was apparently quite a character, assuming the name and title 'Count Roehenstart' (Rohan-Stuart) ,marrying twice but producing no offspring, and dying at an advanced age during a visit to Scotland when his carriage overturned. For many years it was assumed that the fate of Charlotte's two daughters was unknown, but recent research by Peter Pininski, a reputed descendant, has evidently established that while the younger daughter (Charlotte) died giving birth to a stillborn child, the elder daughter (Marie Victoire) married a Polish nobleman and had a son who begat a line of descendants still extant today. Pininski set forth his research in a book entitled "The Stuarts' Last Secret" which was published a number of years ago, but unfortunately is not available, not even on inter-library loan, in my locality, so I've never seen it.

Part of this genealogical lineage may be traced by clicking on the Genealogics link that Peter provided, and quite a bit more detailed information on this reputed descent may be found by clicking on Bonnie Prince Charlie's link on wargs.com, the website of the late William Addams Reitwiesner, which is still available online. Wikipedia also has additional information on this line of descent. According to Reitwiesner's research, while not especially numerous, there are nevertheless descendants of Prince Charles Edward Stuart extant today in Britain, Canada, and Poland.

It probably ought to be mentioned that not all historians accept the validity of this line of descent, or of Pininski's research.

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Dis Aliter Visum "Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."
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