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hubertgaston

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Do you know if there is still monarchists Chinese movements, parties or organizations ?
Thank you
SupremeDirector

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While I'm sure there still are a few, 60 years of Communist propaganda and mass extermination probably severly lessened their number.


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BaronVonServers

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I have spoken with a friend, from mainland China about Monarchism in China, and the Monarchy has another disadvantage as well:  The recent Chinese monarchies where always considered to be 'outsiders' by the 'true' Chinese, especially the last dynasty.

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hubertgaston

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Here is what I know about the chinese monarchists.
History: The decline of imperial China at the end of the XIXème century led a certain number of Chinese intellectuals to constitute political parties with the Westerner in order to reform the State. Thus are born Tongmenghui (Sworn League) ancestor from Guomindang (Nationalist) in 1894 and favorable to a parliamentary republic, and Baohuanghui (Association for the Reform of the Empire) in 1898, in favour of a constitutional monarchy, which will be transformed into Chinese Constitutionaliste Party. The constitutional monarchists reach the capacity in June 1898 but, quickly confronted with the sharp hostility of the old empress Ts' Heu Hi, they throw sponge in September of the same year revolving from now on their efforts of propaganda in direction of the Chinese diaspora in the United States and in Australia mainly.
The reform of the empire having failed, this one quickly will be forwarded to its end. It is into 1912 that Sun Yat-SEN, the founder of the Sworn League, proclaims the republic in China. The last emperor Pu Yi, then 6 years old, is constrained with abdication. Sovereign of the Manchu dynasty of Ts' ing, his abdication hardly involves disorders. The Celestial Empire falls like a too ripe fruit. An attempt at imperial restoration, carried out to its own profit by the president of the republic, the General Yuan Shikai, in December 1915 fails in front of the general hostility three months later. In the same way, the emperor Pu Yi will be restored a few days by a part of the army in July 1917 before having to abdicate one second time, opening the era of the lords of the war and the civil disorders.
In 1934, the Japanese who occupy Mandchourie install Pu Yi with the report heading marionette of Mandchouko. Pu Yi will be made prisoner by the Soviets in 1945 then delivered to the Chinese popular authorities in 1950. Rehabilitated, Pu Yi will be released and named in an use of gardener in Peijing. Although become officially communist, it will indicate little time before its death (1967) one of its nephews, Yu Yan born in 1918, to succeed to him as a future but quite hypothetical emperor.
After its death, it is probably his elder son, prince Yuan Yuan, projectionist of its state, which will have to assume the difficult role of claimant.
The dynasty of Ts' ing, Manchu, had reached the throne in 1644 after having reversed that, Chinese, of Ming. The Chinese people never supported really this foreign dynasty and remained faithful to the memory of the Ming dynasty. And thus developed a curious underground royalism, legitimist and patriotic. Many secret societies (triads) claimed support for Ming, mixing criminal, Messianic and political activities briskly. Until the revolution of 1911-1912, the Chinese history is thus punctuated risings and rebellions started by the "Society of the White Lotus", the "Society of the Small Knife" which seizes Shanghai in 1853 in the name of the "Great Ming Dynasty" or that of the "Red Spades", always with the cries of "Let us cut down Ts' ing! Let us restore Ming! ".
Policy: Since the victory of the Communists, it is almost impossible to know the situation of the monarchists in China. Side of Ts' ing, it is well not very probable that they still count partisans (they already did not have any much at the time of their reigns). Only a ghostly branch of the Chinese Constitutionaliste Party seems to remain in San Francisco where this movement always has a seat of right as a founder member within the board of directors of the Chinese hospital of the city founded in 1925.
It seems on the other hand that the feeling pro-Ming remained in China even. Initially because there is not about any doubt that certain secret societies survived in spite of the communist mode. Then because they are the same Communists them which sometimes let pass from the bits of information confirming the fact. In 1952, the "Newspaper of Yangzi" announced for example the dismantling of a secret society, "the Furnace bridge of the Injury to the Bushel", which claimed to carry to the capacity a eight year old child, fore-mentioned Zhu, so-called direct descendant of Ming. More close to us, one learned that in November 1976 the Chinese army had to intervene in the province of Hunan to disperse a gathering of 6 000 people being on the point of proclaiming the restoration of "king Ming". One will not know any more...
Then, perhaps does somebody know in San Francisco this Chinese Constitutionaliste Party? Or an other group elsewhere ?...
royalcello

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My understanding is that restorationist monarchism as we in the West understand it is not really compatible with traditional Chinese beliefs.  This is because of the doctrine of the "Mandate of Heaven."  The Chinese traditionally held that a reigning emperor was chosen and supported by Heaven and it was wrong to rebel against him.   However, if a rebellion was successful, that meant that the deposed emperor had obviously lost the "Mandate of Heaven," which now descended upon the victor.  (In other words, an unsuccessful rebel is a traitor who must die, but a successful rebel is ipso facto legitimate and must be obeyed.)   This doctrine, consistently interpreted, would imply that the Manchu dynasty lost the "Mandate of Heaven" in 1911 and that it is now held by the Communist government just as it was held by any emperor.   So the idea of agitating for a restoration of the Chinese monarchy, if one does not have the strength to overthrow the People's Republic of China, would be antithetical to the Chinese concept of monarchism, which was first and foremost about obedience to authority, and lacks any equivalent of European genealogical dynastic legitimism.

Now there may be some individuals who have decided that the "Mandate of Heaven" does not apply to governments which reject Imperial titles, trappings, and traditions, or that the concept should be abandoned.  But I suspect that they will have an even harder time than Western monarchists in convincing their compatriots of their cause.

hubertgaston

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Originally Posted by royalcello
My understanding is that restorationist monarchism as we in the West understand it is not really compatible with traditional Chinese beliefs.  This is because of the doctrine of the "Mandate of Heaven."  The Chinese traditionally held that a reigning emperor was chosen and supported by Heaven and it was wrong to rebel against him.   However, if a rebellion was successful, that meant that the deposed emperor had obviously lost the "Mandate of Heaven," which now descended upon the victor.  (In other words, an unsuccessful rebel is a traitor who must die, but a successful rebel is ipso facto legitimate and must be obeyed.)   This doctrine, consistently interpreted, would imply that the Manchu dynasty lost the "Mandate of Heaven" in 1911 and that it is now held by the Communist government just as it was held by any emperor.   So the idea of agitating for a restoration of the Chinese monarchy, if one does not have the strength to overthrow the People's Republic of China, would be antithetical to the Chinese concept of monarchism, which was first and foremost about obedience to authority, and lacks any equivalent of European genealogical dynastic legitimism.

Now there may be some individuals who have decided that the "Mandate of Heaven" does not apply to governments which reject Imperial titles, trappings, and traditions.  But I suspect that they will have an even harder time than Western monarchists in convincing their compatriots of their cause.

 

Dear Royalcello,

 

Your analysis is interesting, perspicacious and convincing. But there exists many monarchists movements Korean, Vietnamese, Cambodgians, etc. Also why not Chinese?
royalcello

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I think that the philosophy I'm talking about was more firmly entrenched in China than in the other Asian countries.
hubertgaston

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You are right probably.


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Royalcello, then why did so many Chinese want to restore the Ming Dynasty?

royalcello

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If so, they must have thought that there was a good chance of succeeding, in which case the "Mandate of Heaven" would have been viewed as being returned to the Ming Dynasty.  It would be harder to make this argument today.


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Does anyone even know who the descendents of the Ming Dynasty are?

Rosa

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I do not know who is directly descendent from the Ming, and if they were deposed then it may be safe to say that the incoming dynasty (the Qing) killed as many family members as possible.

 

I know that some of descendants of Qing exist, 2 are intellingstia meaning teachers and one is a comrade cadre and I don't really know what that is.One of the female descendents is a prominent businesswoman.

 

A long time ago the family was mostly gardners and street sweepers but as time passes memory passes.

 

The reason I believe the Communists let them live as normal workers is because the Emperors were regarded as divine(might be wrong word but you get my idea?).


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That was probably part of it. But a second reason may have been to show the Chinese people that even the Dynasty itself could be brought to the level of the common people, making them gardeners would work perfectly for such a purpose.

Rosa

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I think we said the same thing in different ways.

 

What you said does make sense too.


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