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KYMonarchist

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Carlo IV, Duke of Parma is dead at he age of 80.

The new Duke of Parma is Carlo V, Duke of Parma, 40 years old. 

Princess Irene of the Netherlands, Duchess-consort of Parma, now becomes the Duchess-Mother of Parma.

The new Duke of Parma married Annemarie Cecilia Gualthérie van Weezel civilly on June 12th, 2010, and will marry her religiously sometime this fall. Congratulations to Annemarie, the new Duchess-consort of Parma.
The new Duke has an illegitimate son, Carlos Hugo Roderik Sybren Klynstra by Brigitte Klynstra, stepdaughter of Count Adolph van Rechteren Limpurg, Lord of Enghuizen.

Prince Giacomo, Count of Bardi, is now first in line to the Duchy of Parma and Piacenza. Prince Sisto Enrico is 2nd in line.

He was the Carlist claimant to the Spanish throne and was the heir to the Napoleonic creation of the Kingdom of Etruria, both of which are now inherited by his son and heir Carlo.

He was disputedly the Grand Master of the Constantinian Order of St. George.

He was undisputedly the Grand Master of the Order of St. Louis for Civil Merit, Grand Master of the Order of the Legitimidad Proscrita, and the Grand Master of the Order of St. George for Military Merit.

The aforementioned orders are all now claimed by his son and heir Carlo.


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DC

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Irene and Carlos Hugo have been divorced for over 20 years so I doubt she will be called Duchess Mother of Parma and is defiantly not Duchess consort. The new duke will be “Carlo V, Duke of Parma” going by the families official website his late father “Carlo IV of Parma” and “Carlos Hugo I of Spain”. It will be interesting to see if the new duke pursues the Carlist claim. 



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Neville

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Reply with quote  #3 

Duchess Mother?  No, I don't think so.  If they were still married she might be Dowager Duchess, or perhaps Duchess Irene rather than The Duchess.  But, as DC says, the divorce makes it a moot point.

KYMonarchist

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC
Irene and Carlos Hugo have been divorced for over 20 years so I doubt she will be called Duchess Mother of Parma and is defiantly not Duchess consort. The new duke will be “Carlo V, Duke of Parma” going by the families official website his late father “Carlo IV of Parma” and “Carlos Hugo I of Spain”. It will be interesting to see if the new duke pursues the Carlist claim. 



This is apparently true, Theodore's gotta change the thread title.

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"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #5 
The late Duke dropped his Carlist claims several years back, and although he has made some claim to Carlist titles like "Duke of Madrid" for his family, it is unclear if he ever took the pretentions to the Spanish throne back up.  His warm relations with the King of Spain would seem to indicate that he did not.  He was always a bit too far to the left for the tastes of most Carlists anyway.  Regardless, the Carlists have oddly long leaned towards Prince Sisto, although that in itself violates the very basic reasoning behind Carlism.

The Congress of Vienna did away with the Napoleonic creation of Etruria as illegitimate, and no one makes claim to it, so no, the new Duke is not heir to any such thing as it does not exist and is not recognized by anyone as a legitimate entity.

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"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
KYMonarchist

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethiomonarchist
The late Duke dropped his Carlist claims several years back, and although he has made some claim to Carlist titles like "Duke of Madrid" for his family, it is unclear if he ever took the pretentions to the Spanish throne back up.  His warm relations with the King of Spain would seem to indicate that he did not.  He was always a bit too far to the left for the tastes of most Carlists anyway.  Regardless, the Carlists have oddly long leaned towards Prince Sisto, although that in itself violates the very basic reasoning behind Carlism.

The Congress of Vienna did away with the Napoleonic creation of Etruria as illegitimate, and no one makes claim to it, so no, the new Duke is not heir to any such thing as it does not exist and is not recognized by anyone as a legitimate entity.

He is nevertheless, the heir to Etruria, so naturally he'll speak Etruscan. And Carlos Hugo took up his Carlist pretension again in 2003. And his son has Carlist titles, though I know not whether he'll make any active claims.


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"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #7 

Quote:
He is nevertheless, the heir to Etruria, so naturally he'll speak Etruscan


That's quite an assumption considering the language is long extinct and scholars today have emense difficulty translating it.  The last known person who we have a record of being able to read it is the Roman Emperor Claudius and even in his day, it was a rare accomplishment.   

Etruria is recognized by Royalists everywhere as being part of modern Tuscany, and the only people who have active claims over Tuscany are the Savoys (as part of the Kingdom of Italy) and the Hapsburgs.

Quote:
And Carlos Hugo took up his Carlist pretension again in 2003. And his son has Carlist titles, though I know not whether he'll make any active claims. 

Carlos Hugo took up claims to certain Carlist titles in 2003 but it is far from clear if he took up the claim to the throne itself.  Seeing that the Carlists (who are devotedly ultra-conservatives)6 had long lost their enthusiasm for him due to his leftist politics, I would doubt he was embraced by any of them.

He was undoubted legitimately Duke of Parma, and a person with potential claims on the throne of Spain, but Etruria is taking things a bit far.


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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Ethiomonarchist

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Her Majesty the Queen of the Netherlands and the Royal Family of Parma jointly issued the announcement of the death of the late Duke, Carlos Hugo of Bourbon Parma.  Their Majesties the King and Queen of Spain, their Royal Highnesses the Prince and Princess of Asturias have sent their condolences to Prince Carlo, the new Duke of Parma.  The remains of the late Duke will be flown from Barcelona to lie in state in the Netherlands before being returned to Italy for his burial in the Bourbon family crypt in Parma.  Apparently there has been little notice of his death in the Spanish press outside of the former Carlist stronghold of Navarre. 

The day of the late Duke's funeral has been fixed for the day that would have been the wedding day of his son the new Duke.  The wedding has been postponed.

http://gpdhome.typepad.com/royalblognl_news_summary/2010/08/king-juan-carlos-sends-condolences.html

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #9 
Don Carlos Hugo de Bourbon-Parma is lying in state at the Noordeinde Palace in The Hague.  Her Majesty Queen Beatrix, her sister Princess Irene (the late Duke of Parma's ex-wife) and other members of the Dutch and Parmesian royal families are paying their respects in the Netherlands.

Dutch Queen Beatrix and her sister Irene walk ...
The Queen of the Netherlands and Princess Irene lead members of the Dutch Royal family towards the chapel at the Noordeinde Palace where Don Carlos Hugo is lying in state.

The remains of Duke Carlos de Bourbon-Parma are ...

A reflection of the coffin of the late Duke of Parma in a mirror as it lies in state at the Noordeinde Palace in the Netherlands.

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
royalcello

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYMonarchist
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC
Irene and Carlos Hugo have been divorced for over 20 years so I doubt she will be called Duchess Mother of Parma and is defiantly not Duchess consort. The new duke will be “Carlo V, Duke of Parma” going by the families official website his late father “Carlo IV of Parma” and “Carlos Hugo I of Spain”. It will be interesting to see if the new duke pursues the Carlist claim. 



This is apparently true, Theodore's gotta change the thread title.


Unfortunately I'm not sure how to do that ever since WebsiteToolbox apparently changed something.  It used to be either I or the thread starter could change a thread title by editing the first post, but that does not now seem to be the case.  I do not, as far as I can tell, have any more ability to change a thread title than its creator (in this case you) does.

By the way, the proper place to tell me about something like this is here on the forum, either via PM or publicly, not on Facebook, please.  As you've presumably noticed, I'm currently in England, but I do check the forum occasionally while here, even if I don't post much.
Ethiomonarchist

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The family of the late Duke of Parma surround his coffin
 
HRH Carlos Hugo of Bourbon Parma will be laid to rest this coming Saturday in Parma.  It is being reported that the late Duke is to be buried wearing a Benedictine habit in recognition of his close ties to that order.  He will also be buried with his late father's red beret in his hands.
 
The costs of the funeral are being covered by the Queen of the Netherlands, the former sister-in-law of Don Carlos Hugo, in spite of the Queen's rather chilly attitude towards the House of Parma's Carlist claims on the throne of Spain.

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Peter

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Reply with quote  #12 
It did cross my mind that the new Duke ought to have been Carlo V, as there was a 19th-century Carlo III (the last Duke to actually rule; his son Roberto I reigned briefly as a minor) and so the late Duke should have been Carlo IV himself. I dismissed it, presuming that he used Carlo Ugo for his nominal reign and was therefore a I. Apparently not.

Carlo III was interesting, not so much for himself as for his Duchess, through whom all surviving descents from Charles X of France come, and therefore representation of the original Spanish line. That representation will pass after Princess Alicia of Parma, of whom I have spoken before once or twice, well quite a few times, into the senior Bourbon-Sicily line.
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #13 
More information from the Netherlands about the mourning for the late Duke of Parma.

http://gpdhome.typepad.com/royalblognl_news_summary/2010/08/touching-dutch-royal-tribute-to-carlos-hugo.html

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Windemere

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Reply with quote  #14 
Earlier this week, a Dutch court dismissed the petition of Carlos, titular Duke of Parma, who'd opposed his 19 year old natural son's petition to assume the Bourbon-Parma surname, and Dutch title of Prins de Bourbon de Parme.  The son , Carlos Hugo Klynstra, is the son of Carlos of Borbone-Parma and of Brigitte Klynstra. Dutch law permitted Hugo to assume his father's surname & title of nobility, provided he made the petition after turning 18 years old, and before turning 22. Carlos Hugo filed the petition last year, and it was apparently granted earlier this year. Duke Carlos did not go into detail about his reasons for opposing his son's petition, except to say that Carlos Hugo's mother made the decision to become a mother "independently", and he said that the lawsuit was "a sad, personal matter". As a result of the court's decision, Carlos Hugo will now apparently assume the Bourbon-Parma surname, and will acquire the Dutch title of Prins de Bourbon de Parme.

The Dutch title was newly-created in 1996 for the 4 children (Carlos, Jaime, and 2 daughters) of Princess Irene of the Netherlands and her husband, the late titular Duke Carlos Hugo of Parma. Their children were brought up in the Netherlands. After his father's death in 2010 (noted in the above thread), the elder son, Carlos, assumed the Italian title of Duke of Parma, based upon the old Duchy of Parma, in the modern Italian province of Emilia-Romagna. Following his relationship with Brigitte Klynstra, Carlos married Dutch citizen Annemarie (Gualtherie van Weezil), and they've had 3 children ( 2 daughters, and a young son, Carlos, who was born this past April). Newly-born Carlos is his father's heir to the old Duchy of Parma.

The Dutch Prins  de Bourbon de Parme title is hereditary in the male line. (Their daughters apparently hold the title of prinses, but do not pass on the title. I think that this is the general convention for German and Austrian noble titles, also). Carlos himself, his younger brother Jaime,his newly-born son Carlos, and now his natural son Carlos Hugo, currently hold, or will hold,  this title. The younger brother, Jaime (who also holds the Parmese title Conte of Bardi) has 2 young daughters (one born earlier this year), but no sons.The Dutch title, and it's rules of succession, have no effect upon the Duke of Parma title, which is based upon the rules of the old Duchy of Parma.

It seems to me a good thing that Carlos Hugo becomes eligible for the Dutch title. Unless Carlos or his brother Jaime have more sons, the continuity of the title will rest with Carlos Hugo, and his young half-brother Carlos.Carlos Hugo , after his father, is the senior genealogical representative of the Borbone-Parma lineage. Dutch law permitted him the legal right to petition for the surname and title, and he understandably chose to exercise his right to do so. They say that time heals all wounds, and hopefully the family will be able to mend bridges and carry on their House's legacy.

The male line of the House of Borbone-Parma, as a whole, is well-fortified. The present Duke also has an elderly bachelor uncle, Sixtus (who was active in Carlist politics). After them comes the Grand Ducal family of Luxembourg, with numerous agnates, but whom I believe renounced their eligibility for the Duchy of Parma succession. Further down the line are the descendants of Principes Rene (d. 1962) and Louis (d. 1967), who number about 10 or so.






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Peter

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Reply with quote  #15 
Thanks for all that interesting information. It is to be hoped that father and son will be able to establish amicable relations; after all, whatever the circumstances of the latter's conception, he was in no way to blame for them. I note an error in my old post #12 above, which is the statement that descent from Charles X of France survives only through his granddaughter Princess Louise Marie Thérèse of France, Duchess of Parma as consort of Carlo III. All legitimate descent does, she had three full siblings but two died young and the other, the titular Henri V of France, lived to 62 but never had children. However there were also no fewer than nine known half-siblings, by six different mothers; evidently her father Charles, duc de Berry, the younger son of Charles X, was quite the gallant.

Of this illegitimate issue, Genealogics lists extensive surviving descent from Charlotte, princesse de Lucinge by marriage, his elder daughter by Englishwoman Amy Brown, and their younger daughter Louise. These were in fact the only illegitimate children Berry ever acknowledged, but whether or not all of the others were in fact his and whether or not descent survives from any of them, which the Wikipedia article first linked suggests it might, the voluminous number of descendants of Charles X through Amy Brown's daughters made clarification of my original statement necessary. The Duchess of Parma had other half-siblings by her mother's second marriage, but obviously those are not germane to the question of descent from Charles X.
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