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Windemere

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Reply with quote  #31 
Here are the 2 sources that Genealogics.com lists  for his Erik Christoffersen (Lovenbalk) information:

1. Nachkommen Gorms des Alten, 1978, Brenner, S. Otto.
2. Thoger Lovenbalk Wadskjaer Anhentafel Chart 2012, Ericksen,Maria. nr 63744.

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #32 
I did look at the page, but those are going to be secondary sources and it is the primary source that is needed. The Wikipedia article on Christopher II also has Erik Kristoffersen as an illegitimate son (and gave me the whole idea for the quiz, though don't ask me why I was looking at Christopher II's article in the first place because I don't know), but gives no source. I don't plan to spend a great deal of time myself looking into this, but if anyone out there has knowledge of the question I would be grateful to hear from them.
Vasaborg

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Reply with quote  #33 
On Genealogics there is a John Sinclair ( son of William Sinclair, Lord of Rosslyn) who married Ingeborg , natural daughter of King Waldemar IV of Denmark. I wonder if their son William had any family? or had any brothers or sisters ?
Peter

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Reply with quote  #34 

Valdemar IV, known as Atterdag, was an important figure in Danish history. His legitimate posterity expired with Christopher III of Denmark in the 5th generation (actually his deposed uncle Erik X survived him by eleven years, but Christopher’s death was the effective end point). If Atterdag did have surviving Sinclair descendants through his illegitimate daughter Ingeborg that would be his sole posterity, and I think its existence would be widely known. I therefore assume that the grandson shown through her had no issue himself, and no siblings.

An AH that I would love to write if I had the ability would concern Christopher III’s mother, Erik X’s sister Katarina. As the descendancy chart shows, she married the Wittelsbach Count Johann of Neumarkt, and her brother married Philippa of Lancaster, who was a daughter of Henry IV of England. The original proposal had been for a double wedding, with Erik marrying Philippa while Katarina married Henry, Prince of Wales, the future Henry V. Only the first wedding happened, but think of the consequences had the entire plan been carried out.

Say the wedding was literally double, so happened in 1406. Katarina actually had her first child in 1408, and probably still would have. That real first child died an infant, as did her next four children, only the youngest, the future Christopher III, living to adulthood. But with a different marriage and different circumstances in England that needn’t have been so. The point is Katarina was evidently fertile, and we know Henry V was. When Henry died in 1422, instead of a single infant heir he might have left a 14-year-old son with several younger siblings. No long and disastrous regency, no Henry VI (or at least not the same Henry VI). Quite probably no Wars of the Roses. Definitely no Tudors, and the House of Lancaster might have continued to reign unchallenged for generations, while the House of York remained important nobles but no more.

Could England have kept France? I doubt it. The Hundred Years War might have been still further prolonged, but I expect with the same eventual outcome. Would England have got Denmark? Not to mention Sweden and Norway? I can’t see a revival of Canute’s empire as being practicable, but when in 1439/40 Erik X was deposed from his three thrones there would have been no Christopher III to offer them to. When Christopher died in reality Christian of Oldenburg was the choice, a remote kinsman but there was no one nearer.  I don’t think he would have been similarly chosen in my alternative reality on Erik’s deposition, as firstly he was a child at the time and secondly there would have been much nearer kinsmen, Eric’s quite possibly several nephews in place of the sole nephew of reality.

The King of England in all probability would still have been Henry VI by name, albeit a quite different person to the historical one, and by this time just over thirty years old and around eighteen years on his throne, or thrones if the France claim was being kept up. His next brother, call him John and Duke of Bedford, would be late twenties and married with young children; the perfect King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Would this cadet branch of the House of Anjou have reigned for the next six hundred years and more in Denmark and (with an interruption), Norway, and provided Swedish and Russian monarchs also, not to mention Greek?

Perhaps, and perhaps they would have done even more, and maintained the Kalmar Union in perpetuity. We can never know. What is certain is that the Oldenburgs would not have done any of the things above (and they certainly tried hard to maintain Kalmar, though with only brief successes). What they would have done is stay a minor North German family, and only genealogical scholars would even have heard of Christian of Oldenburg today. All from a proposed marriage that, in this reality, didn’t fall through.

Peter

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Reply with quote  #35 

There has been a good deal of speculation on the forum lately about the chances of a Romanian restoration, maybe as early as next year. While the signs do appear hopeful, in that most of the Presidential frontrunners seem to endorse the idea of a referendum, the outcome of such a poll is far from guaranteed. One would hope that Romanians would seize the chance to replace their notably corrupt republican system with a constitutional monarchy headed by the dynasty that (Carol II aside) served their country so well as it struggled towards nationhood, but at the moment there would be a majority against.

Still, the position does look more encouraging than probably at any time since King Michael’s original overthrow and the installation of a Communist tyranny, and I was inspired to produce a chart of European royal relationships as they would be were the Romanian Crown restored. Three charts actually appear below, with the usual split and combined statistics following; I could in fact have posted just one chart so far as forum size limits are concerned, but the extra column meant it would not fit into the measure of the page. Besides, splitting the chart in this way highlights various interesting things which for once I will not point out at tedious length, but leave people to discover for themselves if they are so inclined.

Obviously the assumption is that the restoration would be in the person of King Michael himself, and that there would be no other accessions between then and now. I am sure all will share my hope that before too long these charts can be retitled and moved to the 1952 to the present day thread, but for now here they are in this one. There is a guide to how to read the charts here.

Peter

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Reply with quote  #36 
I: Relationships of the Protestant* European sovereigns as they would be at the restoration of the Romanian Crown
Reigning monarchElizabeth IIMargrethe IIC XVI GHarald VW-AMichael I
Elizabeth II of Great Britain3c CIXD
3c VGB
3c VGB2c E7GB5c1r FIIW3c CIXD
3c VGB
Margrethe II of Denmark3c CIXD
3c VGB
1c GVIS2c F8D3c FFIIMS3c CIXD
3c VGB
Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden3c VGB1c GVIS2c1r OIISN3c1r GVWP3c VGB
Harald V of Norway2c E7GB2c F8D2c1r OIISN3c2r WDN3c CIXD
3c VGB
Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands5c1r FIIW3c FFIIMS3c1r GVWP3c2r WDN4c1r FW3P
Michael I of Romania3c CIXD
3c VGB
3c CIXD
3c VGB
3c VGB3c CIXD
3c VGB
4c1r FW3P
* Including one Orthodox      
Key:  
CIXDE7GBF8D
Christian IX of Denmark (4)Edward VII of Great Britain (1)Frederik VIII of Denmark (1)
FFIIMSFIIWFW3P
Friedrich Franz II, Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (1)Friedrich II Eugen, Duke of Württemberg (1)Friedrich Wilhelm III of Prussia (1)
GVISGVWPOIISN
Gustaf VI Adolf of Sweden (1)Georg Viktor, Prince of Waldeck and Pyrmont (1)Oscar II of Sweden and Norway (1)
VGBWDN 
Victoria of Great Britain and Ireland (6)Wilhelm, Duke of Nassau (1) 
Most connections formed:VGB (6)CIXD (4)Others (1)
Peter

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Reply with quote  #37 
Relationships of the Catholic European sovereigns as they would be at the restoration of the Romanian Crown
Reigning monarchH-A IIHenriAlbert IIPhilippeFelipe VI
Hans-Adam II of Liechtenstein3c MIP5c1r KLB3c1r MIP5c1r CIVS
5c1r FI2S
5c1r KLB

5c1r KLHL
5c1r LIIE
Henri of Luxembourg3c MIP5c KBa1c L3B4c CIXD
Albert II of Monaco5c1r KLB5c KBa5c KBa6c KLB
Philippe of Belgium3c1r MIP1c L3B5c KBa4c CIXD
Felipe VI of Spain5c1r CIVS
5c1r FI2S
5c1r KLB

5c1r KLHL
5c1r LIIE
4c CIXD6c KLB4c CIXD
Key:  
CIVSCIXDFI2S
Carlos IV of Spain (1)Christian IX of Denmark (2)Ferdinando I of the Two Sicilies (1)
KBaKLBKLHL
Karl, Grand Duke of Baden (2)Karl Ludwig, Hereditary Prince of Baden (3)Karl Ludwig, 3rd Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg (1)
L3BLIIEMIP
Léopold III of Belgium (1)Leopold II, Holy Roman Emperor (1)Miguel I of Portugal (2)
Most connections formed:KLB (3)CIXD, KBa, MIP (2)Others (1)
Peter

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Reply with quote  #38 
Relationships between the Protestant* and the Catholic European sovereigns as they would be at the restoration of the Romanian Crown
Reigning monarchH-A II
of Liechtenstein
Henri
of Luxembourg
Albert II
of Monaco
Philippe
of Belgium
Felipe VI
of Spain
Elizabeth II of Great Britain7c1r JWFO3c1r CIXD7c2r JWFO3c1r CIXD3c1r CIXD
3c1r VGB
Margrethe II of Denmark4c2r MIB2c1r F8D5c2r KFB2c1r F8D3c1r CIXD
3c1r VGB
Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden4c2r MIB3c OIISN5c2r KFB3c OIISN3c1r F8SH
3c1r VGB
Harald V of Norway4c1r MIB1c1r CPSN7c LIXHD1c1r CPSN3c1r CIXD
3c1r VGB
Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands5c1r KLHL4c1r WDN7c LIXHD4c1r WDN5c FLMS
5c FW3P
Michael I of Romania4c1r FIA
4c1r JVIP
3c1r CIXD
3c1r KAH
4c1r KBa3c1r CIXD
3c1r KAH
1c1r CIG
* Including one Orthodox
Key:  
CIGCIXDCPSN
Constantine I of Greece (1)Christian IX of Denmark (7)Prince Carl of Sweden and Norway (2)
F8DF8SHFIA
Frederik VIII of Denmark (2)Friedrich VIII, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein (1)Franz I of Austria (1)
FLMSFW3PJVIP
Friedrich Ludwig, HGD of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (1)Friedrich Wilhelm III of Prussia (1)João VI of Portugal (1)
JWFOKAHKBa
Jan Willem Friso, Prince of Orange (2)Karl Anton, Prince of Hohenzollern (2)Karl, Grand Duke of Baden (1)
KFBKLHLLIXHD
Karl Friedrich, Grand Duke of Baden (2)Karl Ludwig, Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg (1)Ludwig IX, Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt (2)
MIBOIISNVGB
Maximilian I Joseph of Bavaria (3)Oscar II of Sweden and Norway (2)Victoria of Great Britain and Ireland (4)
WDN  
Wilhelm, Duke of Nassau (2)  
Most connections formed:CIXD (7)VGB (4)MIB (3)CPSN, F8D, JWFO, KAH, KFB, LIXHD, OIISN, WDN (2)Others (1)
Peter

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Reply with quote  #39 
Combined statistics as they would be at the restoration of the Romanian Crown
CodeNameTIIIIIICodeNameTIIIIII
CIXDChristian IX of Denmark13427MIPMiguel I of Portugal 2-2-
VGBVictoria of Great Britain and Ireland106-4CIGConstantine I of Greece 1--1
F8DFrederik VIII of Denmark 31-2CIVSCarlos IV of Spain 1-1-
KBaKarl, Grand Duke of Baden 3-21E7GBEdward VII of Great Britain 11--
KLBKarl Ludwig, Hereditary Prince of Baden 3-3-F8SHFriedrich VIII, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein 1--1
MIBMaximilian I Joseph of Bavaria 3--3FFIIMSFriedrich Franz II, GD of Mecklenburg-Schwerin 11--
OIISNOscar II of Sweden and Norway 31-2FI2SFerdinando I of the Two Sicilies 1-1-
WDNWilhelm, Duke of Nassau 31-2FIAFranz I of Austria 1--1
CPSNPrince Carl of Sweden and Norway 2--2FIIWFriedrich II Eugen, Duke of Württemberg 11--
FW3PFriedrich Wilhelm III of Prussia 21-1FLMSFriedrich Ludwig, HGD of Mecklenburg-Schwerin 1--1
JWFOJan Willem Friso, Prince of Orange 2--2GVISGustaf VI Adolf of Sweden 11--
KAHKarl Anton, Prince of Hohenzollern 2--2GVWPGeorg Viktor, Prince of Waldeck and Pyrmont 11--
KFBKarl Friedrich, Grand Duke of Baden 2--2JVIPJoão VI of Portugal 1--1
KLHLKarl Ludwig, Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg 2-11L3BLéopold III of Belgium 1-1-
LIXHDLudwig IX, Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt 2--2LIIELeopold II, Holy Roman Emperor 1-1-
Peter

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Reply with quote  #40 

On Thursday, the funeral will take place at Leicester Cathedral of a King of England, Richard III, last Plantagenet King, considered the last medieval monarch, the last sovereign of England to die in battle. Despite my distaste for Richard III, usurper, child murderer and lawless tyrant, I accept that having established himself and been accepted as the sovereign for a reasonable period he was a King, and have decided to mark the occasion.

Richard III has his defenders, of course, from whom all too much has been heard in recent days. Simply put, his nephews and wards disappeared from human sight in 1483. Richard’s reign lasted until 1485, during which time opinion grew ever stronger that they were no longer being seen because he had murdered them. Were they alive, he could have produced them at any time and instantly quelled the rumours. Had they died naturally, he could have announced the fact and given them decent burial, which while it would not have stopped suspicion that the deaths were not natural certainly would have helped. In fact, not only did Richard do neither of these things, he is never recorded as publicly referring to his nephews, as if they had disappeared from memory as well as sight. And when they disappeared, they were in his custody and care.

Quite why the finger of suspicion should point anywhere but at Richard is therefore hard to discern. Add to that the discovery of the remains of the two Princes during the reign of Charles II, and the forensic examination of those remains conducted during the reign of George V, which showed that if they were the Princes (and the identification is every bit as convincing as is the identification of Richard III’s own remains) they must have died in 1483, early 1484 at latest. If they had survived to be murdered by Henry VII, as Richard III supporters theorise, or rather fantasise, they would have grown in a way which the pre-pubertal skeletons found had not.

There is much more that could be said on the particular accusation of child murder, but I will leave it at that. There is also the inarguable fact of the usurpation, not justified by any failures of the rightful King to reign justly and in accordance with law, as the rightful King was a boy under tutelage and had no responsibility for government. And the as inarguable fact that Richard III had numerous persons imprisoned and executed without trial, acting as if the law did not apply to him and his acts. Against this is set the fact that he was an important legal reformer, introducing bail and the presumption of innocence to the English legal system.

Neither is true. Bail was far older, for example it was covered in the 1275 Statute of Westminster, itself a codification of existing laws. And the presumption of innocence is found in Roman law, and had become a fairly general legal principle in Europe from the thirteenth century on. In fairness, Richard did make improvements to the bail system and also took measures to ensure that justice was more readily accessible to the poor. In his long government of the North on behalf of his brother Edward IV he had already proved his capability as an administrator, which he showed again as King, and he had demonstrated from his teenage years that he possessed the other virtue most often claimed for him, that he was a brave warrior and able general.

As Cardinal Wolsey said ‘although he did evil, yet in his time were many good acts made’. True as that may be, the evil was so black that I cannot but be glad of the outcome of the Battle of Bosworth Field. The table that follows in the next post shows the relationships of Richard III with the contemporary European sovereigns, and also one who was shortly to join their number, dated one day before the battle. The date is because Henry VII craftily and dishonourably dated his reign to the day preceding his victory, allowing him to execute those who had opposed him; a blot on the record of one who was nevertheless a far better man and a far greater monarch than the King he displaced.

Peter

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Reply with quote  #41 
Relationships of Richard III of England with other European sovereigns on 21st August 1485, the day before the Battle of Bosworth Field   
Reigning monarchR'shipVia   
Friedrich III, Holy Roman Emperor6c2rBIVH   
James III of Scotland2c1rJDL   
Ivan III of Russia7c1rBIVH Richard III – Genealogics 
Vladislav II of Hungary & Bohemia4c1rWHH Richard III – Wikipedia 
Isabella I of Castile2cJDL Key: 
Ferrando II of Aragón3c1rAIXC AIXCBIVH
Hans of Denmark & Norway6cCIIN Alfonso XI of Castile (2)Béla IV of Hungary (2)
João II of Portugal2c1rJDL CIINCCV
Catherine of Navarre4c1rAIXC Charles II of Naples (1)Charles, Count of Valois (1)
Charles VIII of France5cCCV JDLWHH
Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond2c1rJDL John, Duke of Lancaster (4)Willem III, Count of Holland and Hainaut (1)
Windemere

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Reply with quote  #42 
Thanks for this interesting narrative of the likely misdeeds of Richard III, and for the genealogical backgrounds of the other European sovereigns who were reigning at this time.

It's quite fascinating how these monarchs intermarried and interacted with each other in the generations before and after these years. Emperor Friedrich III's grandson married a daughter of Fernando (of Aragon) and Isabella (of Castile). Fernando and Isabella's only son, who died early, married a granddaughter of Friedrich III. The only son of Joao II of Portugal, who died young, also married a daughter of Fernando and Isabella.

Richard III quite likely arranged the secret execution of his two young nephews. Richard was slain in the Battle of Bosworth Field fighting against Henry VII (Tudor), who afterwards married Richard's niece and years later arranged the execution of yet another nephew.

Hoping to forge an alliance between Spain and England, Fernando and Isabella married their youngest daughter, in succession, to the two young sons of of Henry VII (Tudor), with consequences quite different from what they'd intended.

The son and successor of James III of Scotland married the daughter of Henry VII (Tudor). James' queen was the sister of Hans of Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. Hans' son and successor married a granddaughter of Fernando and Isabella.

Kazimierz IV was reigning in Poland & Lithuania at this time, and he was the father of Vladislav III of Bohemia and Hungary. Vladislav's son and successor (who died, aged 20, at the Battle of Mohacs) married a granddaughter of Fernando and Isabella.

Charles VIII of France, Henry VII (Tudor), and Catherine of Navarre were all great-grandchildren of Charles VI (the Mad) of France.

Ivan III married as his second wife the niece of the last Byzantine Emperor, and his successors, probably because of their Eastern Orthodox religion, sought brides from the Russian nobility, or from the Balkan principalities.


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Dis Aliter Visum "Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."
Peter

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Reply with quote  #43 
Re-reading this, I see that I missed out Kazimierz IV in the table. I can't at present find the Excel original to amend and repost it, but he and Richard III were 5c3r through BIVH, raising his score to three connections formed. At a later date I will fix the table and key.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #44 

What follows is presently in three parts, the first of which is a poetic excerpt, the second an overview of surviving descents from the various Imperial Houses of Byzantium, and the third the nitty-gritty of just which Houses descent is traceable from, and which Emperors. I have taken this last part only halfway, and at some future date will add a fourth part to finish the story. The third part is already long enough, but despite this no more than a sketchy summary was aimed for, or attained; in view of the great span of time and numerous individuals involved anything more detailed would have been lengthy indeed, and also so long in the writing I would probably never have finished it even as far as I have got.

Peter

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Reply with quote  #45 

Prelude

                                       I

Recalcitrant tribes heard ;
orthodox wisdom sprang in Caucasia and Thule ;
the glory of the Emperor stretched to the ends of the world.

In the season of midmost Sophia
the word of the Emperor established a kingdom in Britain ;
they sang in Sophia the immaculate conception of wisdom.

Carbonek. Camelot, Caucasia,
were gates and containers, intermediations of light ;
geography breathing geometry, the double-fledged Logos.

                                       II

The blind rulers of Logres
nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue ;
the seals of the saints were broken ; the chairs of the Table
       reeled.

Galahad quickened in the Mercy ;
but history began ; the Moslem stormed Byzantium ;
lost was the glory, lost the power and kingdom.

Call on the hills to hide us
lest, men said in the City, the lord of charity
ride in the starlight, sole flash of the Emperor's glory.

                                       III

Evil and good were twins
once in the alleys of Ispahan ; the Moslem
crying Alla il Alla destroyed the dualism of Persia.

Caucasia fell to the Moslem ;
the mamelukes seized the ancient cornland of Empire.
Union is breached ; the imams stand in Sophia.

Good is God, the muezzin
calls, but lost is the light on the hills of Caucasia,
Glory of the Emperor, glory of substantial being.

Charles Williams, Taliessin through Logres (1938)

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