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Domhangairt

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I was reading an internet discussion yesterday about the idea of restoring the Hungarian monarchy.

On respondent who calls herself "Mara" suggested that she would prefer one of the Arpads, but since that dynasty is now extinct there is no point in trying to bring the Hungarian monarchy back. She suggested that Hungarians were tired of foreign rulers and dynasties.

She may be pleasantly surprised to know that the House of Arpad did not go extinct with the death of King Andrew III in 1301 (III.Endre). Only the senior line died out. At the time there were more than one junior lines still extant. However the Great Powers of Europe put pressure upon the Hungarian estates to accept Charles Robert of Anjou as their new king. Charles Robert was descended through his grandmother from King Stephen V (V.Istvan). But there were male agnates of the Arpad dynasty alive and well at the time- these descended from younger sons of earlier Arpad Grand Princes and Kings of Hungary, as well as illegitimate descendants. 

If the House of Arpad still survives, then who is it's head or leader? Well this is debatable, but by far the strongest contender for this honour is His Serene Highness the 15th Duke of Croy. Rudolf, Duke of Croy claims descent in the direct male line from Duke Geza, the youngest son of King Geza II (II.Geza) who died in 1162. When Duke Geza's elder brother was elected king as Bela III (III.Bela), Geza put in a rival claim, supported by his mother. Bela III imprisoned his younger brother for several years, but was persuaded to release him by the Holy Roman Emperor Friedrich Barbarossa, so that Geza could accompany him on the Third Crusade. King Bela agreed, and Duke Geza left Hungary to join Friedrich's Crusade.  When the Crusade was over, Bela summoned Geza back to Hungary, but he never returned knowing full well that he would be arrested and locked up- possibly for the rest of his life.  He married Princess Erene of Byzantium, had two sons, Geza (Alexios) and Istvan (Stefanos). Alexios became the ancestor of the Princes of Rubempre. This male line died out around 1759, whence their titles and estates passed by marriage to the Merode family (I stand to be corrected). Istvan/Stefanos married and had a son Endre who was a crusader knight based in Venice. Endre married, and had two sons, Felix and Marc. Endre and his sons eventually settled in France. Felix became the ancestor of the Crouy-Chanel family which -as far as I know- became extinct as late as 1995 with the death of Francois de Crouy-Chanel. I stand to be corrected here.  Marc married Catherine Croy-Araines, Heiress of the Barony of Croy in modern Belgium. From this marriage are descended the Dukes of Aerschot -extinct by 1635, and the Dukes of Croy which family survives and thrives in the male line at the present day.

Furthermore, Rudolf, 15th Duke of Croy can also claim descent from the Habsburg kings of Hungary through his mother, Princess Gabriele of Bavaria. If DNA tests were to confirm his Arpad heritage, Rudolf's claim might be considered over that of the current Habsburg pretender, Karl of Habsburg-Lotharingen "V.Karoly".

Domhangairt

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Further to my previous post, Felix Arpad claimed the Crown of Hungary in 1290 on the death of King Ladislaus IV (IV.Laszlo), but was passed over in favour of Andrew "the Venetian" who became King Endre III (III.Endre). Andrew's claim was senior genealogically, being a great-grandson of King Bela III (III.Bela).

Furthermore the Drummond family of Scotland also claim Arpad male-line descent dating back to the 11th century. No-one took their claim too seriously until 1959. In that year, a medieval document was found in Warsaw which claimed that King Andrew I "the Catholic" (I.Endre) had a son, Gyorgy, by a "non-Christian  marriage" to a Hungarian woman -before his conversion to Catholicism. The Warsaw manuscript also  claims that when his father was baptized and remarried to a Russian princess, this Gyorgy left Hungary and eventually settled in "Scotland". So maybe the Drummond family claims are true after all?

The Drummond family take their name from their ancient lands of "Drummain" which were awarded to their ancestor George/Gyorgy of Hungary by Scotland's King Mael-Colum III around 1071. TFrom this family which are heads of the Clan Drummond, are descended the Dukes of Melfort, now extinct, and the Dukes of Perth. The Perth family's titles were forfeited by the Hanoverian British Parliament as punishment for their allegiance to the Scottish royal House of Stuart which was disinherited by the British Parliament on account of their Catholic faith in 1701, and 1706 (Scotland). Eventually in 1853, the British Parliament restored the Drummond family to their Perth Earldom (not Dukedom). The present head is John Drummond, 9th Earl of Perth (17th/18th in the Stuart Peerage).
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #3 
A Drummond or a Croy claimant would be just as foriegn as a Hapsburg (perhaps more so since the Hapsburgs at least reigned in Hungary for centuries right up to the end of WWI, and the Croy and Drummond blood connections are extremely distant to present day Hungary) , so I don't see any "native" advantage they would have over them.
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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Domhangairt

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Hi Yes. You are quite right. One of these families would have to go and live in Hungary and raise  their children there. A recent marriage to a Habsburg- Lorraine dynast would also help.

However the Habsburg-Lotharingen family are today controversial in Central Europe, mainly because of their wartime alliance with Kaiser Wilhelm, a man seen-perhaps unfairly- as the architect of chaos and destruction of pre-war Europe and especially the Kingdom of Hungary- which lost two thirds of it's territory at the signing of the post-war Treaty of Triannon. While many people in Bohemia, Hungary, and Russia would like to see the return of monarchy there- this monarchist sentiment does not necessarily translate into support for the wartime dynasties which reigned in those countries. In Russia, for example, most monarchists would prefer not to have the Romanoff-Holstein-Gottorp family back- which is Danish- German anyway- and would prefer to elect a new Czar like the Russians did back in 1613.

Coupled with their passion and respect for the original Arpad dynasty, modern Hungarian nationalists might well be tempted to dump the Habsburgs, and bring back their prestigious Arpad dynasty from the dead. And in any case, the present Duke of Croy is descended through his mother from the Habsburg King Lipot (Leopold) II, which might calm the passions of the Habsburg supporters. But DNA testing would be mandatory to eliminate any doubt and gossip.
Domhangairt

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Ethiomonarchist. I  would like to add to my previous post that the post war Hungarian assembly which reconstituted Hungary as a monarchy after a brief period as a communist republic in 1920 made it very clear to the Habsburgs that they were not welcome- when Karoly IV tried to reclaim his Hungarian Throne. Not sure how modern Hungarians would react if the present Habsburg pretender "Karoly V" decided to stake his claim.  
Ethiomonarchist

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Quote:
 I  would like to add to my previous post that the post war Hungarian assembly which reconstituted Hungary as a monarchy after a brief period as a communist republic in 1920 made it very clear to the Habsburgs that they were not welcome- when Karoly IV tried to reclaim his Hungarian Throne.


Admiral Horthy did live to state that this was the biggest mistake of his government.  The establishment of foriegn dynasties in Eastern  Europe has not been a raring success as they didn't prove to be long lasting, but the Hapsburgs had a long established reign over Hungary, and I am loathe to see them supplanted as long as there are still members of the house living and able to assume the throne.  Anything else would not meet my standards for legitimacy.  I'm sure you appreciate my point of view Domhanqairt.

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Domhangairt

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Reply with quote  #7 
Sure, Ethiomonarchist- many people in Europe share your views.
Peter

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I have a view somewhere in between the two of you. While only the head of the House of Habsburg-Lorraine, currently Archduke Karl (titular V. Károly for Hungary), can make a hereditary claim, if the Hungarian people decided a) to restore the monarchy and b) to elect a new dynasty, I would regard that, after the amount of time that has passed since the fall of the monarchy, as entirely legitimate. That would include if they elected a Croÿ or a Drummond, although as neither family possesses any connection with Hungary other than a claimed tracing of lineage from a medieval Arpád prince I wouldn’t expect a member of either to be a serious candidate.

I am sceptical about the claims, though I certainly don’t dismiss them as impossible to be true. Even if verified by DNA analysis, which would require extracting a Y chromosome from the remains of I. András (reigned 1046-1060) for the Drummonds and II. Géza (1141-1162) for the Croÿs, or from a forefather of either or both (the Arpád prince Vászoly was the father of I. András and paternal-line ancestor of II. Géza, but I am not sure if his burial location is known), I wouldn’t see that as creating a viable hereditary claim after the passage of more than seven centuries since the Arpáds last ruled.

One of the things that happened after that was the Turkish conquest of Hungary, which took place in 1526. The Habsburgs inherited the Hungarian crown through marriage, but precious little of the Hungarian lands; all but a rump of those had to be patiently reconquered, the work not completed until 1699. And Hungary was won back with Imperial troops and allies, not Hungarian forces. Bella gerant alii, tu felix Austria nube does not quite apply here; a Habsburg ruler of Austria, the Emperor Ferdinand I, did indeed marry the heiress but there was still a great deal of war-waging to be done. I feel that the Habsburgs earned the Hungarian crown, and if it is restored then it ought to be to their heir. However, both the restoration and the choice of dynasty are a matter for the Hungarian people, as I started out by saying, and election would make a new wearer of the Holy Crown every bit as legitimate as any tracing of blood could.

Spingoman

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The Hungarian assembly only disinherited the Habsburgs under pressure from the Little Entente. Those of the family who remained in Hungary, the Archdukes Friedrich and Josef, together with their families, continued to have due respect given to their royal status. I believe that Horthy himself was, at heart, an Habsburg loyalist but could not be seen so for pragmatic purposes. Indeed, in his memoirs he states that, as regent, he modelled himself on Franz Josef and in the penultimate paragraph of those memoirs he states:

"It may be looking too far ahead to concern ourselves with this at the present moment, but it would seem evident, were the unity of this new-old state to be re-created, that at its head should be placed a person who stood indisputably above the strife of nationalities. I would rejoice if, at the helm of a mighty and happy Federation of Danubian States, I were to see the rightful heir of the Habsburg dynasty".
 
 
 
 
 
 
Domhangairt

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Hi Spingoman. I am not sure another Habsburg central European Empire would work. The EU has now replaced the need for  a Habsburg Empire. Perhaps a Habsburg emperor at the helm of the EU? I have reason to believe that the late Otto von Habsburg was at one stage being groomed for that role- but he is passed now and his son is been accused of corruption by his own party- not good for Habsburg revivial. Mini-nationalism is now all the rage in Europe. Bavaria wants to break from the German Federal Republic, Flanders wants to break from Belgium, Catalonia from Spain, Northern Italy from the Italian Republic, and Scotland from the United Kingdom. Hungarian nationalism is at an alltime high now- not sure that Hungary would want to rejoin a union of the old Habsburg states. But that doesnot mean that they would not accept a Habsburg as their king.
Domhangairt

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Hi Peter. Only the Hungarians can decide who they would want as their king- and yes a Habsburg would be the most likely candidate. But those Arpad supporters do have several candidates they could propose.

Regarding the Turkish invasion- actually the Turks overran Hungary then got as far as Vienna. We have the Poles to thanks for the fact that we are not all praying to  Mohammed today and speaking Arabic. Polish King Jan Sobieski stopped the Turks at Vienna, then drove them back. Imperial troops were also involved. Small wonder then that modern Austrian politicians tend to get rather emotional when neolithic EU commissioners talk about negotiating Turkeys' entry into the EU- especially after the Turkish Prime Minister suggested that his party would like to convert all of Europe to Islam. Dear Lord, please reincarnate Jan Sobieski. Europe has never needed him more than now what with some twenty million Muslims -many of them militant -already resident in Europe.
Domhangairt

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After much searching on the Net, I have now uncovered the family which descended from Alexios of Byzantium, elder son of Duke Geza of Hungary by his marriage to Princess Erene of Byzantium. This Alexios known by his Hungarian supporters as "Geza", was known in Picardie , France, as Alexandre Sans Terre which translates into English as Alexander the "Landless", or "Stateless". He obtained the Lordship of Rupempre and married Isabelle of Brienne. Their descendants held the Lordship of Rubempre in the male line until 1612. During this period, the family acquired the rank of Princes of the Empire (Holy Roman). The last Arpad Prince of Rubempre passed his titles and estates to his daughter in 1612. She married into the Merode family, and after her passing in 1630, the Merode family acquired the Arpad Rubempre estates- and their titles. The Merode family still hold these titles at the present day under the Crown of Belgium.

Now for Felix, nephew of Alexios/Alexandre Sans Terre above. Felix was the eldest son of Endre of Hungary, son of Stephanos of Byzantium, younger son of Duke Geza of Hungary who died ca 1210. Felix acquired the Lordship of Crouy-Chanel in what is today Belgium- then a province of the Holy Roman Empire. He married and his male line descendants held the Crouy-Chanel lordship for generations. Like their Arpad cousins, this family acquired princely rank within the Empire. The last male of the line, Francois de Crouy-Chanel died in 1995. I have been unable to trace any other male line descendants of Felix Arpad. Contributions are welcome.  

So it would appear that the Duke of Croy is the senior surviving representative of Duke Geza of Hungary, fourth son of King Geza II (II.Geza) of Hungary who died in 1162. This would make him Heir Male of the House of Arpad- but I am open to correction here. He has cousins in Belgium, and I think Bohemia. There are still around fourteen surviving male agnates of the Croy family excluding sisters and daughters.
KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #13 
This thread should really be in the Europe section. Also, apologies for taking a year to make this post.
Domhangairt

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Further to my last post last year, Dr. Antal Leiszen PhD, informs me that new research shows that the Duke of Croy may in fact descend from King Endre II of Hungary, not Geza II. Hungarian researchers discovered a 17th century entry in the annals of the  Venetian Patrician families which states that Prince Andrew of Halych, a son of King Endre II, fled Halych when Prince Daniil of Halych succesfully laid siege to Hallych Castle and city about 1232. The entry states that Andrew of Halych settled in Venice and married a daughter of a Venetian Patrician and had two sons, Marc and Felix. The entry further states that Marc left Venice and settled in France where he married and acquired estates. Felix followed him later. So the plot thickens. 
Roideroi

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Reply with quote  #15 
I'd like to see clan Leslie and loyalist familys of Short try to claim it because I'm claiming direct descent from the senior branch of Roi. Arpad is a cadet branch of Valois and I'm directly descended from the French monarchy through Porhoet in my main line, Arpad, Bouillon-Auvergne and descent from William The Conqueror's half brother on my maternal side of the family. I can unite the Capet dynasty through a solid blood test.
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