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Peter

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Reply with quote  #16 
I'm glad you liked the thread, though never entirely satisfied I'm pretty pleased with it myself. I'm afraid I don't propose to delete it all then replicate it with a later date, though. What would you give as a date for the Black Death, anyway? I agree that most of the threads have dates with a more significant European or even world importance, but Edward III was a major monarch who reigned for a long time, over 50 years, vastly increased England's power and prestige, won victories famous to this day and made important changes to the country's administration and legislation, the influence of which is also felt to this day. Being English I think I am allowed to be a little Anglocentric now and then, so long as I don't overdo it (which I don't think I have), and anyway he was as I say a major figure in Europe generally. So given that Edward III is a fair subject, what date to choose? There are several other dates I could have picked, important battles and so forth, but I chose the day on which he first stamped his authority as King, in a bold and imaginative action that foreshadowed much of his later reign.

I do have plans for four more threads, two later and two earlier than this one. At the proper time I will advise what each of these will be, as I also did with this one in advance, and you are welcome to raise the same sort of objections. I do all the work so I get to make the decisions, but I am certainly willing to consider the opinions of others, and am glad if they are offered.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #17 
I have deleted two posts explaining corrections to the charts as originally posted, and also that these corrections made no significant difference to the pattern of royal relationships on the day, or my arguments in the introduction part II. I felt that these posts had been up for long enough for anyone interested who might have been misled by the original errors to have seen them, so had fulfilled their function. I have also at last posted the full introduction part I, and given the thread its proper title. Sometime next week I should be posting the 1371 charts and associated material, though there will again be only a temporary introduction. Hopefully this should not stand for too long; it was a long time since I had written anything of such length as this thread's historical introduction would have to be, and for a while I felt too intimidated even to begin. Then once begun the task of course took some time to complete. I should be more ready to begin the 1371 introduction, though it will still take a fair while to write as it certainly will not be any shorter than this one, which is I am afraid not short at all.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #18 

A couple of points on this thread that, though conscious of them, I didn’t make previously: first, I showed at some length that Edward III of England was a universal ancestor, thereby establishing the same for his mother Isabella of France, a second actor in the drama with which the thread opened. The same in fact is true of the third actor, Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March.

Edward III could be ruthless but was not usually cruel or spiteful, and took no vengeance against Mortimer’s family. His title was attainted and his lands confiscated, but over the years they were slowly restored to Mortimer’s grandson and heir, another Roger Mortimer, and after he had distinguished himself fighting in the French wars the title was restored too. It passed to his son Edmund, the 3rd Earl, to his son Roger, 4th Earl, and his son Edmund, 5th Earl but childless, so the earldom passed through his sister Anne to his nephew Richard, 3rd Duke of York. His heir was Edward IV, who before his accession was 7th Earl of March, the peerage then being merged with the Crown and extinguished.*

The descent however was not extinguished. In the 1286 note on posterities, in connection with showing descent from William I of Scotland, grandfather of Alexander III of the same, Edward IV is shown to be a universal ancestor, and so therefore is Roger Mortimer. Now, there are people who believe the nonsense about Edward IV’s paternity advanced first by his worthless brother Clarence, then his wicked brother Gloucester. There was never the remotest evidence for its truth and plenty of evidence that it was a lie, and both men in fact withdrew the accusations (in Gloucester’s case, to make way for new lies about the legitimacy of Edward IV’s children).

However, people tend to believe what they want to believe, and evidence be damned; there would hardly be such a thing as a Richard III Society were that not the case. So for those people here is another route entirely from the original Roger Mortimer, bypassing Edward IV and going straight to Anna Jagiello, wife of the Emperor Ferdinand I and mother of all his children, so like him a universal ancestor.

The other point I wanted to make concerns an unusual feature of the ancestries of Edward III, Afonso IV of Portugal, Philippe VI of France and Alfonso IV of Aragón. All four great-grandfathers of each of them was a king. Not all that surprising, you might think, but actually this is rare, and I feel sure there was never before or since four monarchs at the same time with this distinction. Well, never since except when in 1337 Pietro II of Sicily acceded, making another fourth to replace the departed Alfonso IV of Aragón. The table below lists all the occurrences I can think of, and while I don’t suppose I have caught every single instance you do get an idea of how rare it is. Incidentally, while Maria II da Gloria of Portugal and Pedro II of Brazil were siblings, the aforementioned Alfonso IV of Aragón and Pietro II of Sicily were not, but rather double first cousins.

#MonarchRealmFromToGreat-grandfather 1Great-grandfather 2Great-grandfather 3Great-grandfather 4
1Louis V France986987Charles III of FranceHeinrich I of GermanyHugh of ItalyRudolf II of Burgundy
2Alfonso XCastile12521284Ferdinand II of LeónAlfonso VIII of CastileFriedrich I, HR Emperor Isaac II Angelos, E Emperor
3Sancho IVCastile12841296Alfonso IX of LeónPhilipp of GermanyPero II of AragónAndrás II of Hungary
4Margaret IScotland12861290Haakon IV of NorwayErik IV of DenmarkAlexander II of ScotlandHenry III of England
5Jean IFrance13161316Philippe III of FranceHenri I of NavarreCharles II of NaplesRudolf I of Germany
6Afonso IVPortugal13251357Afonso II of PortugalAlfonso X of CastileChaime I of AragónManfred of Sicily
7Edward III England13271377Henry III of EnglandFernando III of CastilePhilippe III of FranceHenri I of Navarre
8Alfonso IVAragón13271336Chaime I of AragónManfred of SicilyCharles I of NaplesIstván V of Hungary
9Philippe VIFrance13281350Louis IX of FranceChaime I of AragónCharles I of NaplesIstván V of Hungary
10Pietro IISicily13371352Chaime I of AragónManfred of SicilyCharles I of NaplesIstván V of Hungary
11Juan IICastile14061454Enrique II of CastilePero IV of AragónEdward III of EnglandPedro of Castile
12Felipe IIISpain15981621Juana I of SpainManoel I of PortugalFerdinand I, HR EmperorKarl V, HR Emperor
13João VIPortugal18161826Pedro II of PortugalLeopold I, HR EmperorJoão V of PortugalFelipe V of Spain
14Maria IIPortugal18261853Maria I of PortugalCarlos IV of SpainLeopold II, HR EmperorFerdinando I of the Two Sicilies
15Pedro IIBrazil18311889Maria I of PortugalCarlos IV of SpainLeopold II, HR EmperorFerdinando I of the Two Sicilies

The qualification for inclusion is to have four separate great-grandparents who were Emperors, Kings, or Empresses or Queens regnant (the latter two count as honorary great-grandfathers in the table). ‘Separate’ covers four other cases I can think of, the Emperors Rudolf II and Matthias (who were brothers), Fernando VII of Spain and the present King of Norway, all of whose great-grandfathers were Kings or Emperors, but not all four, as in every case one repeats so they only had three. And another four who went further, Pedro I of Castile, Sebastião of Portugal, Ferdinand I of Austria and Alfonso XII of Spain; all their great-grandfathers were either Kings or Emperors, but they only had two great-grandfathers.

I was a bit dubious about Felipe III of Spain, as the last two of his listed great-grandparents were sons of the first, but still allowed him in along with João VI of Portugal, whose third great-grandparent was the first's son. Well, that’s it. I’ve listed 15 cases, plus another eight that could be included if you’re not picky. That really is not a lot considering all the monarchs there have been, and while I’m sure the number could be increased (if anyone can think of other examples please say, and I’ll gladly add them to the table) I still think four at the same time was remarkable, and worth pointing out.


* It was later recreated several times, and is currently held by the Duke of Richmond, whose heir uses it as a courtesy title.

Vasaborg

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Reply with quote  #19 
In the Genealogics site it has Karin Magnusdotter daughter of Magnus Birgersson of Sweden ( son of Birger King of Sweden 1290-1319) . M. Sjosttrom 2007 says" Karin is mentioned as his kinswoman by Magnus IV of Sweden , and later her issue is mentioned as kin by his son Haakon VI.  Norwegian historian Gustav Storm has postulated that Karin was an illegitimate daughter of Magnus Birgersson heir of Sweden , the only son of King Birger. Although a bit uncertain , such parentage for Karin Magnusdotter is presumed or mentioned even in respected biographical, genealogical, and prosopographical literature. Magnus Birgersson appears to have been almost the only person in the dynasty (with whom she attestedly was kin) chronologically suitable to have been her father. No credible facts have been presented to disprove outright this proposed parentage". Genealogics gives two sources for Karin Magnusdotter. I found descendants of her in Finland in this century, I did not look long enough to see if she has any Royal descendants.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #20 
There were so many Birgers and Magnuses at this time that at first I wasn't sure who you were talking about, and therefore what you were getting at. Eventually I sorted it out: you were speaking of this lady, granddaughter of King Birger Magnusson who, as discussed in the introduction, put his younger brothers to death then was replaced by the son of one of them, his nephew Magnus VII of Norway who thus became Magnus IV of Sweden also. It does appear that King Birger's granddaughter Karin is the only conduit for descent from him, so is of some interest. I looked through her descent down to the last century and could see no evidence that it entered royal lines at any point; I am familiar with the routes by which it might have happened, and there was no sign of any of them.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #21 
Anyone wishing to reply further to this topic is invited to do so in the discussion thread at the top of the page. This thread is now locked, for reasons explained there.
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